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This is a fucking huge win! | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!"
] |
>
Cool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?! | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!"
] |
>
can I fix my phone now please | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!"
] |
>
Man.
Has anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please"
] |
>
Whenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.
Otherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that."
] |
>
I wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer
Farmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York."
] |
>
Not sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever"
] |
>
People don't realize how huge this is for farmers | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way."
] |
>
In Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers"
] |
>
Omg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us! | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%."
] |
>
Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to "divulge trade secrets" or "override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels."
Reading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!"
] |
>
Shame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the "right" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like "apple" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though."
] |
>
Historic, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to"
] |
>
Huge win for them. Right to repair always | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general"
] |
>
Oh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always"
] |
>
I’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this."
] |
>
Alright that’s some good news | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there"
] |
>
Damn, how long did this take | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news"
] |
>
So this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?
I feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take"
] |
>
I just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws."
] |
>
Hell fucking yeah my farmer bros | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands."
] |
>
This is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros"
] |
>
They will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now."
] |
>
good, its fucking stupid to say someone cant repair their own damn stuff. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now.",
">\n\nThey will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts"
] |
>
Rule 1 of economics: (market equilibrium but shush) Keep food cheap. People can have all the jobs they want, but if food (and other inelastic goods but mostly food) isn’t available, you have issues. If people start starving, people start revolving. So keep farmers happy
This will result in cheaper repairs, less downtime and cheaper crops at the cost of (looks down at market cap)a 127 billion dollar company and it’s shareholders. A good trade I’d say | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now.",
">\n\nThey will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts",
">\n\ngood, its fucking stupid to say someone cant repair their own damn stuff."
] |
>
What a weird thing to read | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now.",
">\n\nThey will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts",
">\n\ngood, its fucking stupid to say someone cant repair their own damn stuff.",
">\n\nRule 1 of economics: (market equilibrium but shush) Keep food cheap. People can have all the jobs they want, but if food (and other inelastic goods but mostly food) isn’t available, you have issues. If people start starving, people start revolving. So keep farmers happy \nThis will result in cheaper repairs, less downtime and cheaper crops at the cost of (looks down at market cap)a 127 billion dollar company and it’s shareholders. A good trade I’d say"
] |
>
Now new equipment and parts will be even more expensive | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now.",
">\n\nThey will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts",
">\n\ngood, its fucking stupid to say someone cant repair their own damn stuff.",
">\n\nRule 1 of economics: (market equilibrium but shush) Keep food cheap. People can have all the jobs they want, but if food (and other inelastic goods but mostly food) isn’t available, you have issues. If people start starving, people start revolving. So keep farmers happy \nThis will result in cheaper repairs, less downtime and cheaper crops at the cost of (looks down at market cap)a 127 billion dollar company and it’s shareholders. A good trade I’d say",
">\n\nWhat a weird thing to read"
] |
>
Won't someone think of the shareholders? Just this ONCE?? | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now.",
">\n\nThey will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts",
">\n\ngood, its fucking stupid to say someone cant repair their own damn stuff.",
">\n\nRule 1 of economics: (market equilibrium but shush) Keep food cheap. People can have all the jobs they want, but if food (and other inelastic goods but mostly food) isn’t available, you have issues. If people start starving, people start revolving. So keep farmers happy \nThis will result in cheaper repairs, less downtime and cheaper crops at the cost of (looks down at market cap)a 127 billion dollar company and it’s shareholders. A good trade I’d say",
">\n\nWhat a weird thing to read",
">\n\nNow new equipment and parts will be even more expensive"
] |
>
I run a computer shop and we have worked on these units, the firmware wipes when you remove the battery and the DC jack is casted in epoxy. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now.",
">\n\nThey will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts",
">\n\ngood, its fucking stupid to say someone cant repair their own damn stuff.",
">\n\nRule 1 of economics: (market equilibrium but shush) Keep food cheap. People can have all the jobs they want, but if food (and other inelastic goods but mostly food) isn’t available, you have issues. If people start starving, people start revolving. So keep farmers happy \nThis will result in cheaper repairs, less downtime and cheaper crops at the cost of (looks down at market cap)a 127 billion dollar company and it’s shareholders. A good trade I’d say",
">\n\nWhat a weird thing to read",
">\n\nNow new equipment and parts will be even more expensive",
">\n\nWon't someone think of the shareholders? Just this ONCE??"
] |
>
That's great. Been tracking this story for years. Was amazed how it was an issue. | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now.",
">\n\nThey will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts",
">\n\ngood, its fucking stupid to say someone cant repair their own damn stuff.",
">\n\nRule 1 of economics: (market equilibrium but shush) Keep food cheap. People can have all the jobs they want, but if food (and other inelastic goods but mostly food) isn’t available, you have issues. If people start starving, people start revolving. So keep farmers happy \nThis will result in cheaper repairs, less downtime and cheaper crops at the cost of (looks down at market cap)a 127 billion dollar company and it’s shareholders. A good trade I’d say",
">\n\nWhat a weird thing to read",
">\n\nNow new equipment and parts will be even more expensive",
">\n\nWon't someone think of the shareholders? Just this ONCE??",
">\n\nI run a computer shop and we have worked on these units, the firmware wipes when you remove the battery and the DC jack is casted in epoxy."
] |
> | [
"It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.",
">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.",
">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.",
">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center",
">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.",
">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.",
">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?",
">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.",
">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.",
">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.",
">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy",
">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.",
">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh",
">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.",
">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.",
">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.",
">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.",
">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.",
">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.",
">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.",
">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.",
">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.",
">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.",
">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?",
">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.",
">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.",
">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.",
">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.",
">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.",
">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!",
">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.",
">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.",
">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.",
">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.",
">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.",
">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.",
">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.",
">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?",
">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"",
">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.",
">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.",
">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.",
">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.",
">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.",
">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.",
">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)",
">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.",
">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next",
">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...",
">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.",
">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer",
">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini",
">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed",
">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show",
">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years",
">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.",
">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.",
">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.",
">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.",
">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.",
">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"",
">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.",
">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.",
">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.",
">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.",
">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.",
">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.",
">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.",
">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.",
">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.",
">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.",
">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.",
">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.",
">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.",
">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.",
">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.",
">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.",
">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s",
">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.",
">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero",
">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.",
">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer",
">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.",
">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.",
">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.",
">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.",
">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.",
">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!",
">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".",
">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.",
">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.",
">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.",
">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.",
">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.",
">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right",
">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.",
">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.",
">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.",
">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023",
">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms",
">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right",
">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right",
">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.",
">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.",
">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?",
">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this",
">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?",
">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.",
">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.",
">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.",
">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers",
">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!",
">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.",
">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.",
">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.",
">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking",
">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.",
">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.",
">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?",
">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on",
">\n\nThis is good news for the consumer!! Yay! Now do cars next!",
">\n\nThis is a fucking huge win!",
">\n\nCool now ban subscription services for things I already paid for! Why should someone have to pay $9.99/month to use their heated seats when they already paid $80k for their BMW?!",
">\n\ncan I fix my phone now please",
">\n\nMan.\nHas anyone else been to that side exhibit at the county fair where they recreate taking their John Deere or Ford tractor implements shaving a 2x4 down to a million perfect toothpicks? Or a John Deere driven assembly line turning a bucket of apples into cider? John Deere was the forefront of makerspaces. I wish they could see that.",
">\n\nWhenever I see Louis Rossman's take on this, I'll celebrate then.\nOtherwise this may be as shallow as that new legislation in New York.",
">\n\nI wonder why that wouldn't just be the end of John deer\nFarmers can't stop production to wait for a tech ever",
">\n\nNot sure why this is an issue. So many of these folks refuse to vote for the kinds of “socialist” market regulation that protects customers from this exact kind of behavior. Capitalism is fine, but until you temper it with a healthy dose of regulation, you’re just asking to be bent over by a profits-over-people company. This is, literally, what they asked for. The reason they had to fight so hard for the cure is because they’ve been fighting so hard to allow JD to screw them over without repercussions for so long. I’m happy for their win, it is common sense yes, but i am disheartened by the fact that come next election cycle these same folks will elect yet another republican representative who will cry about how democrats are hurting industry and, in thinly veiled language, promise to support JD in implementing exactly this kind of predatory behavior on them, only with fewer pesky hinderances along the way.",
">\n\nPeople don't realize how huge this is for farmers",
">\n\nIn Other News: John Deere part prices just went up by 400%.",
">\n\nOmg this is huge, honestly never thought it was gonna happen. Good for them, good for all of us!",
">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nReading the MOU nothing changes from the status quo, good little PR push though.",
">\n\nShame on John Deer Farm Equipment Manufacturers. This should never been an issue and famers should not have to fight and sue them in court just to win the \"right\" to fix their own farm equipment. Don't be like \"apple\" and make things unfixable forcing people to pay more and more for things that they don't need to",
">\n\nHistoric, lets fucking go farmers and Right to Repair in general",
">\n\nHuge win for them. Right to repair always",
">\n\nOh yes, this is extremely good news and hopefully sets a precedent for future laws like this.",
">\n\nI’m surprised with the shit that JD pull that there are not more Massey Fergusons out there",
">\n\nAlright that’s some good news",
">\n\nDamn, how long did this take",
">\n\nSo this is great, but is there anything in place to stop them from just deciding to pull out of the agreement?\nI feel like they made this concession simply to remove pressure on lawmakers to pass federal right to repair laws.",
">\n\nI just hope the brands who fought this lose face with the customers, and they switch to other brands.",
">\n\nHell fucking yeah my farmer bros",
">\n\nThis is such big news. Farmers will be much more profitable now. We will see how long it takes for the federal government to lower their payments and subsidies to farmers now.",
">\n\nThey will just pull an apple and sell a whole kit that's very expensive and sell whole assembly instead of seperate parts",
">\n\ngood, its fucking stupid to say someone cant repair their own damn stuff.",
">\n\nRule 1 of economics: (market equilibrium but shush) Keep food cheap. People can have all the jobs they want, but if food (and other inelastic goods but mostly food) isn’t available, you have issues. If people start starving, people start revolving. So keep farmers happy \nThis will result in cheaper repairs, less downtime and cheaper crops at the cost of (looks down at market cap)a 127 billion dollar company and it’s shareholders. A good trade I’d say",
">\n\nWhat a weird thing to read",
">\n\nNow new equipment and parts will be even more expensive",
">\n\nWon't someone think of the shareholders? Just this ONCE??",
">\n\nI run a computer shop and we have worked on these units, the firmware wipes when you remove the battery and the DC jack is casted in epoxy.",
">\n\nThat's great. Been tracking this story for years. Was amazed how it was an issue."
] |
They should make the people that caused the damage clean it up and pay for it as part of their punishment. It's not fair that law abiding citizens pay for damage done by a bunch of deranged criminals. | [] |
> | [
"They should make the people that caused the damage clean it up and pay for it as part of their punishment. It's not fair that law abiding citizens pay for damage done by a bunch of deranged criminals."
] |
It's about time. Linguicide is real and has been practiced all around the world for millenia. It's is a deeply damaging form of racism that destroys cultures from within.
One of the reasons that makes America special is there is no official state language by law. other countries the very act of declaring a state language is a death knell for all other languages spoken there. | [] |
>
Sometimes not though. Papua New Guinea has three official languages but also has more languages than any other country, with populations of speakers that are not generally in decline.
Mexico also has an official language at the same time as having a large number of other stable languages.
And like the U.S., Australia, Eritrea, Luxembourg, Sweden and Tuvalu also have no official language. Australia and the U.S. clearly have a number of critically endangered languages and populations that have been subjected to linguicide, so a country having or not having an official language can't really be considered the key factor in language death / linguicide. Although the way the official languages are used in a country will obviously matter a great deal.
Another thing is that Luxembourgish is considered an endangered language, even though Luxembourg has no official language, although the speaker population is larger now than ever before.
And Tuvaluan faces endangerment due to the fact that the entire country of Tuvalu is threatened by sea level rise, so the entire community of Tuvaluan speakers may soon find themselves living in New Zealand and elsewhere, facing pressures to assimilate.
And in Sweden, even though there is no official language, speakers of minority languages still face pressure to know and use Swedish, and minority languages such as the Saami languages still face endangerment.
*All Eritrean languages are equal according to the constitution, but idk what that means in practice. I think the constitution has not been officially implemented since it was written in the 90s? | [
"It's about time. Linguicide is real and has been practiced all around the world for millenia. It's is a deeply damaging form of racism that destroys cultures from within. \nOne of the reasons that makes America special is there is no official state language by law. other countries the very act of declaring a state language is a death knell for all other languages spoken there."
] |
>
Paywall | [
"It's about time. Linguicide is real and has been practiced all around the world for millenia. It's is a deeply damaging form of racism that destroys cultures from within. \nOne of the reasons that makes America special is there is no official state language by law. other countries the very act of declaring a state language is a death knell for all other languages spoken there.",
">\n\nSometimes not though. Papua New Guinea has three official languages but also has more languages than any other country, with populations of speakers that are not generally in decline.\nMexico also has an official language at the same time as having a large number of other stable languages.\nAnd like the U.S., Australia, Eritrea, Luxembourg, Sweden and Tuvalu also have no official language. Australia and the U.S. clearly have a number of critically endangered languages and populations that have been subjected to linguicide, so a country having or not having an official language can't really be considered the key factor in language death / linguicide. Although the way the official languages are used in a country will obviously matter a great deal.\nAnother thing is that Luxembourgish is considered an endangered language, even though Luxembourg has no official language, although the speaker population is larger now than ever before.\nAnd Tuvaluan faces endangerment due to the fact that the entire country of Tuvalu is threatened by sea level rise, so the entire community of Tuvaluan speakers may soon find themselves living in New Zealand and elsewhere, facing pressures to assimilate.\nAnd in Sweden, even though there is no official language, speakers of minority languages still face pressure to know and use Swedish, and minority languages such as the Saami languages still face endangerment.\n*All Eritrean languages are equal according to the constitution, but idk what that means in practice. I think the constitution has not been officially implemented since it was written in the 90s?"
] |
>
Thanks | [
"It's about time. Linguicide is real and has been practiced all around the world for millenia. It's is a deeply damaging form of racism that destroys cultures from within. \nOne of the reasons that makes America special is there is no official state language by law. other countries the very act of declaring a state language is a death knell for all other languages spoken there.",
">\n\nSometimes not though. Papua New Guinea has three official languages but also has more languages than any other country, with populations of speakers that are not generally in decline.\nMexico also has an official language at the same time as having a large number of other stable languages.\nAnd like the U.S., Australia, Eritrea, Luxembourg, Sweden and Tuvalu also have no official language. Australia and the U.S. clearly have a number of critically endangered languages and populations that have been subjected to linguicide, so a country having or not having an official language can't really be considered the key factor in language death / linguicide. Although the way the official languages are used in a country will obviously matter a great deal.\nAnother thing is that Luxembourgish is considered an endangered language, even though Luxembourg has no official language, although the speaker population is larger now than ever before.\nAnd Tuvaluan faces endangerment due to the fact that the entire country of Tuvalu is threatened by sea level rise, so the entire community of Tuvaluan speakers may soon find themselves living in New Zealand and elsewhere, facing pressures to assimilate.\nAnd in Sweden, even though there is no official language, speakers of minority languages still face pressure to know and use Swedish, and minority languages such as the Saami languages still face endangerment.\n*All Eritrean languages are equal according to the constitution, but idk what that means in practice. I think the constitution has not been officially implemented since it was written in the 90s?",
">\n\nPaywall"
] |
>
What a garbage website. | [
"It's about time. Linguicide is real and has been practiced all around the world for millenia. It's is a deeply damaging form of racism that destroys cultures from within. \nOne of the reasons that makes America special is there is no official state language by law. other countries the very act of declaring a state language is a death knell for all other languages spoken there.",
">\n\nSometimes not though. Papua New Guinea has three official languages but also has more languages than any other country, with populations of speakers that are not generally in decline.\nMexico also has an official language at the same time as having a large number of other stable languages.\nAnd like the U.S., Australia, Eritrea, Luxembourg, Sweden and Tuvalu also have no official language. Australia and the U.S. clearly have a number of critically endangered languages and populations that have been subjected to linguicide, so a country having or not having an official language can't really be considered the key factor in language death / linguicide. Although the way the official languages are used in a country will obviously matter a great deal.\nAnother thing is that Luxembourgish is considered an endangered language, even though Luxembourg has no official language, although the speaker population is larger now than ever before.\nAnd Tuvaluan faces endangerment due to the fact that the entire country of Tuvalu is threatened by sea level rise, so the entire community of Tuvaluan speakers may soon find themselves living in New Zealand and elsewhere, facing pressures to assimilate.\nAnd in Sweden, even though there is no official language, speakers of minority languages still face pressure to know and use Swedish, and minority languages such as the Saami languages still face endangerment.\n*All Eritrean languages are equal according to the constitution, but idk what that means in practice. I think the constitution has not been officially implemented since it was written in the 90s?",
">\n\nPaywall",
">\n\nThanks"
] |
> | [
"It's about time. Linguicide is real and has been practiced all around the world for millenia. It's is a deeply damaging form of racism that destroys cultures from within. \nOne of the reasons that makes America special is there is no official state language by law. other countries the very act of declaring a state language is a death knell for all other languages spoken there.",
">\n\nSometimes not though. Papua New Guinea has three official languages but also has more languages than any other country, with populations of speakers that are not generally in decline.\nMexico also has an official language at the same time as having a large number of other stable languages.\nAnd like the U.S., Australia, Eritrea, Luxembourg, Sweden and Tuvalu also have no official language. Australia and the U.S. clearly have a number of critically endangered languages and populations that have been subjected to linguicide, so a country having or not having an official language can't really be considered the key factor in language death / linguicide. Although the way the official languages are used in a country will obviously matter a great deal.\nAnother thing is that Luxembourgish is considered an endangered language, even though Luxembourg has no official language, although the speaker population is larger now than ever before.\nAnd Tuvaluan faces endangerment due to the fact that the entire country of Tuvalu is threatened by sea level rise, so the entire community of Tuvaluan speakers may soon find themselves living in New Zealand and elsewhere, facing pressures to assimilate.\nAnd in Sweden, even though there is no official language, speakers of minority languages still face pressure to know and use Swedish, and minority languages such as the Saami languages still face endangerment.\n*All Eritrean languages are equal according to the constitution, but idk what that means in practice. I think the constitution has not been officially implemented since it was written in the 90s?",
">\n\nPaywall",
">\n\nThanks",
">\n\nWhat a garbage website."
] |
Beautiful, well done on the build. | [] |
>
How dark is the room and how long is that exposure to get any actual light output from that board?? Mines dim AF. | [
"Beautiful, well done on the build."
] |
>
There are two monitors on that are fairly bright right in front of me and that's it. All I did was go into VIA and set it to max brightness on a single color. | [
"Beautiful, well done on the build.",
">\n\nHow dark is the room and how long is that exposure to get any actual light output from that board?? Mines dim AF."
] |
>
Perhaps the green is a bit less opaque then the purple. I do also have a very dark colored desk matt which isn't helping anything. | [
"Beautiful, well done on the build.",
">\n\nHow dark is the room and how long is that exposure to get any actual light output from that board?? Mines dim AF.",
">\n\nThere are two monitors on that are fairly bright right in front of me and that's it. All I did was go into VIA and set it to max brightness on a single color."
] |
>
Jesse, we need to cook | [
"Beautiful, well done on the build.",
">\n\nHow dark is the room and how long is that exposure to get any actual light output from that board?? Mines dim AF.",
">\n\nThere are two monitors on that are fairly bright right in front of me and that's it. All I did was go into VIA and set it to max brightness on a single color.",
">\n\nPerhaps the green is a bit less opaque then the purple. I do also have a very dark colored desk matt which isn't helping anything."
] |
>
It is a risk to travel with that board, cuz you wont know for certainty where you would be after | [
"Beautiful, well done on the build.",
">\n\nHow dark is the room and how long is that exposure to get any actual light output from that board?? Mines dim AF.",
">\n\nThere are two monitors on that are fairly bright right in front of me and that's it. All I did was go into VIA and set it to max brightness on a single color.",
">\n\nPerhaps the green is a bit less opaque then the purple. I do also have a very dark colored desk matt which isn't helping anything.",
">\n\nJesse, we need to cook"
] |
>
Wonderful build! I currently use a tiger 80 lite with oil kings and owlstab V2 as my daily driver and I love it. | [
"Beautiful, well done on the build.",
">\n\nHow dark is the room and how long is that exposure to get any actual light output from that board?? Mines dim AF.",
">\n\nThere are two monitors on that are fairly bright right in front of me and that's it. All I did was go into VIA and set it to max brightness on a single color.",
">\n\nPerhaps the green is a bit less opaque then the purple. I do also have a very dark colored desk matt which isn't helping anything.",
">\n\nJesse, we need to cook",
">\n\nIt is a risk to travel with that board, cuz you wont know for certainty where you would be after"
] |
> | [
"Beautiful, well done on the build.",
">\n\nHow dark is the room and how long is that exposure to get any actual light output from that board?? Mines dim AF.",
">\n\nThere are two monitors on that are fairly bright right in front of me and that's it. All I did was go into VIA and set it to max brightness on a single color.",
">\n\nPerhaps the green is a bit less opaque then the purple. I do also have a very dark colored desk matt which isn't helping anything.",
">\n\nJesse, we need to cook",
">\n\nIt is a risk to travel with that board, cuz you wont know for certainty where you would be after",
">\n\nWonderful build! I currently use a tiger 80 lite with oil kings and owlstab V2 as my daily driver and I love it."
] |
The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution. | [] |
>
Or any laws allowing it | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution."
] |
>
Propositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely.
But seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it"
] |
>
How can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused? | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them."
] |
>
A lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008? | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?"
] |
>
Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?
This is as ridiculous as asking, "Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?"
] |
>
On the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular.
It is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion."
] |
>
“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments."
] |
>
The idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.
This is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation."
] |
>
I'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency."
] |
>
“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc."
] |
>
I live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else."
] |
>
But that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo."
] |
>
Are there any countries where this is a thing?
Of course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.
Would you support national "props"? Why or why not?
It's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some."
] |
>
I wouldn't assume the reasons you suggest; I'd just assume they didn't think of it because it wasn't a common thing at the time. I'd guess it was much easier to talk to legislators back then and make a suggestion for a bill. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some.",
">\n\n\nAre there any countries where this is a thing?\n\nOf course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.\n\nWould you support national \"props\"? Why or why not?\n\nIt's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't."
] |
>
because federal laws are derived from the us constitution, and the modification process is called a constitutional amendment, and there are actual steps set out for this process just zero chance you get 3/4s of Americans to agree on something | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some.",
">\n\n\nAre there any countries where this is a thing?\n\nOf course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.\n\nWould you support national \"props\"? Why or why not?\n\nIt's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't.",
">\n\nI wouldn't assume the reasons you suggest; I'd just assume they didn't think of it because it wasn't a common thing at the time. I'd guess it was much easier to talk to legislators back then and make a suggestion for a bill."
] |
>
Because there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some.",
">\n\n\nAre there any countries where this is a thing?\n\nOf course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.\n\nWould you support national \"props\"? Why or why not?\n\nIt's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't.",
">\n\nI wouldn't assume the reasons you suggest; I'd just assume they didn't think of it because it wasn't a common thing at the time. I'd guess it was much easier to talk to legislators back then and make a suggestion for a bill.",
">\n\nbecause federal laws are derived from the us constitution, and the modification process is called a constitutional amendment, and there are actual steps set out for this process just zero chance you get 3/4s of Americans to agree on something"
] |
>
Because there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some.",
">\n\n\nAre there any countries where this is a thing?\n\nOf course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.\n\nWould you support national \"props\"? Why or why not?\n\nIt's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't.",
">\n\nI wouldn't assume the reasons you suggest; I'd just assume they didn't think of it because it wasn't a common thing at the time. I'd guess it was much easier to talk to legislators back then and make a suggestion for a bill.",
">\n\nbecause federal laws are derived from the us constitution, and the modification process is called a constitutional amendment, and there are actual steps set out for this process just zero chance you get 3/4s of Americans to agree on something",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population."
] |
>
Take it from a Californian - ballot props are an absolute disaster, and have no place in a well run democracy. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some.",
">\n\n\nAre there any countries where this is a thing?\n\nOf course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.\n\nWould you support national \"props\"? Why or why not?\n\nIt's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't.",
">\n\nI wouldn't assume the reasons you suggest; I'd just assume they didn't think of it because it wasn't a common thing at the time. I'd guess it was much easier to talk to legislators back then and make a suggestion for a bill.",
">\n\nbecause federal laws are derived from the us constitution, and the modification process is called a constitutional amendment, and there are actual steps set out for this process just zero chance you get 3/4s of Americans to agree on something",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population.",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population."
] |
>
I would absolutely love if something like this were to occur, but there is no way the parties are going to cede control over the legislating process to the public. Most discourse surrounding legislation is framed around support for or opposition to the intended result of a bill and not whether or not the bill will actually achieve that result or what specific provisions the opposition disagrees with. This lack of scrutiny allows the parties to include whatever they want in the bill so long as the public supports the intended result. A referendum that went straight to the public would be significantly narrower than any bill drafted by congress and would very likely include the common sense provisions without the sticky and disagreeable ones.
That said, I do think something like this would result in one party gaining a pretty solid electoral advantage over time as the general public would always have a check on the fringe of the party running amok. For example, far left democrats regularly pass very liberal laws in California that are overturned the following election cycle via referendum and the CA democrats never lose in the state. Frankly, I think this is a big reason for it. If the progressive wing ever does something that has the exact consequences everyone anticipated and the people don't want to deal with it, they just overturn the part they don't like as they did with the law that resulted in rideshare services basically boycotting the state rather than delegating their drivers as employees. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some.",
">\n\n\nAre there any countries where this is a thing?\n\nOf course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.\n\nWould you support national \"props\"? Why or why not?\n\nIt's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't.",
">\n\nI wouldn't assume the reasons you suggest; I'd just assume they didn't think of it because it wasn't a common thing at the time. I'd guess it was much easier to talk to legislators back then and make a suggestion for a bill.",
">\n\nbecause federal laws are derived from the us constitution, and the modification process is called a constitutional amendment, and there are actual steps set out for this process just zero chance you get 3/4s of Americans to agree on something",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population.",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population.",
">\n\nTake it from a Californian - ballot props are an absolute disaster, and have no place in a well run democracy."
] |
>
Because any move that tries to act like the US is a single state as opposed to an EU confederation of states is viciously opposed by a bunch of "more square miles than people" states who resent things like democracy and having to convince others of your position instead of just imposing your side from whatever level of authority is currently most sympathetic to your position. | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some.",
">\n\n\nAre there any countries where this is a thing?\n\nOf course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.\n\nWould you support national \"props\"? Why or why not?\n\nIt's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't.",
">\n\nI wouldn't assume the reasons you suggest; I'd just assume they didn't think of it because it wasn't a common thing at the time. I'd guess it was much easier to talk to legislators back then and make a suggestion for a bill.",
">\n\nbecause federal laws are derived from the us constitution, and the modification process is called a constitutional amendment, and there are actual steps set out for this process just zero chance you get 3/4s of Americans to agree on something",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population.",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population.",
">\n\nTake it from a Californian - ballot props are an absolute disaster, and have no place in a well run democracy.",
">\n\nI would absolutely love if something like this were to occur, but there is no way the parties are going to cede control over the legislating process to the public. Most discourse surrounding legislation is framed around support for or opposition to the intended result of a bill and not whether or not the bill will actually achieve that result or what specific provisions the opposition disagrees with. This lack of scrutiny allows the parties to include whatever they want in the bill so long as the public supports the intended result. A referendum that went straight to the public would be significantly narrower than any bill drafted by congress and would very likely include the common sense provisions without the sticky and disagreeable ones.\nThat said, I do think something like this would result in one party gaining a pretty solid electoral advantage over time as the general public would always have a check on the fringe of the party running amok. For example, far left democrats regularly pass very liberal laws in California that are overturned the following election cycle via referendum and the CA democrats never lose in the state. Frankly, I think this is a big reason for it. If the progressive wing ever does something that has the exact consequences everyone anticipated and the people don't want to deal with it, they just overturn the part they don't like as they did with the law that resulted in rideshare services basically boycotting the state rather than delegating their drivers as employees."
] |
> | [
"The short answer is because there aren't provisions for it in the constitution.",
">\n\nOr any laws allowing it",
">\n\nPropositions are a more modern invention. So states formed after they existed (usually western) are more likely to have them. Earlier states and the federal government are less likely. \nBut seeing how they can be abused, I’d be hesitant at adding them.",
">\n\nHow can directly asking people what they want instead of going through easily corrupted middlemen be abused?",
">\n\nA lot of ballot initiatives these days are themselves pushed by special interests, not by citizen groups, and are written in such a way as to obscure the actual issue at hand. For example, one of California's recent propositions appears to literally be unions that are unhappy that California dialysis companies won't unionize are then sponsoring a ballot initiative to make the entire industry more expensive. Another example is two competing gambling initiatives, one of which was sponsored by out-of-state companies---imagine if it were the only one on the ballot. Finally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?",
">\n\n\nFinally, are you saying you support California banning gay marriage by ballot initiative in 2008?\n\nThis is as ridiculous as asking, \"Oh, you support a representative democracy? So you support every politician who has ever been elected?\" You're clearly not interested in a good faith discussion.",
">\n\nOn the contrary, the commenter made a great point (but may not have expressed it clearly). One of the reasons our government has checks and balances rather than simple majority rule on every issue with no limits is that the founders foresaw the fact that violating human rights can be popular. \nIt is not a good thing to leave the whims of the people in charge of issues of freedom. Ideally these things are clearly stated in the constitution, but as the founders couldn’t foresee every issue, they gave us the ninth and tenth amendments.",
">\n\n“Ballot box legislation” is often a nightmare. The populace (me included) doesn’t have the time or ability or both to determine all the ramifications of the propositions put before us. The misleading advertisements bombard us on television and in our mailbox. For example, in 1986 California voters approved Proposition 65 that requires labels on everything that has the remote possibility to cause cancer. Guess what? Just about everything has that potential so the labels are so ubiquitous they are just ignored. If you look through a strong enough telescope you’ll see a label on the sun (visible in in CA). I’m not saying that the elected officials are perfect but they do have analysts who can research and determine all the potential hidden problems that can arise from new legislation.",
">\n\nThe idea of an organized federal election is not something inherent to the Constitution. Yes we vote for President and our House reps but in the original Constitution the states had a lot of leeway to decide how to conduct those elections and the federal government was not involved. So the idea of voting en masse for a federal issue doesn't work if the states are all conducting their elections independently.\nThis is also why we have the Electoral College. A popular vote does not make sense if each state has different qualifications for voting and in fact many states did not have a popular vote for president at all until around Jackson's presidency.",
">\n\nI'd probably be against a national referendum process, assuming it was legal. I think it would justify a right-wing sense of victimhood tbh. Meaning, the right could justifiably claim that their voice was being drowned out by folks who sign petitions in New York, Dallas, etc.",
">\n\n“Our voice is being drowned out because legislation supported by the majority passed” is kind of weak tea as a justification, unless you think rural landowners have some god-given right to have their voters weighed more heavily than everyone else.",
">\n\nI live in Texas, and I'd definitely support a state level referendum process in Texas. But at a national level I think you start underming federalism too much. Who cares what Wyoming wants at all if you can just pass referendums and force policy changes on them? The legislative process in Congress is healthier imo.",
">\n\nBut that can happen in the current system as well; it’s not like a single state has veto power over every other in the house or senate. Furthermore, given how over represented states like Wyoming already I have a hard time feeling sympathetic if their political power wanes some.",
">\n\n\nAre there any countries where this is a thing?\n\nOf course. Australia legalized same sex marriage through a referendum. Most Swiss government decisions are made through referendums.\n\nWould you support national \"props\"? Why or why not?\n\nIt's the job of the legislators that we elect to write, evaluate and pass laws, shifting the responsibility onto the people is not what the legislators were elected to do. So no I wouldn't.",
">\n\nI wouldn't assume the reasons you suggest; I'd just assume they didn't think of it because it wasn't a common thing at the time. I'd guess it was much easier to talk to legislators back then and make a suggestion for a bill.",
">\n\nbecause federal laws are derived from the us constitution, and the modification process is called a constitutional amendment, and there are actual steps set out for this process just zero chance you get 3/4s of Americans to agree on something",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population.",
">\n\nBecause there's no way conservatives would be able to cope with finally coming to terms that they have nowhere near a majority of the population.",
">\n\nTake it from a Californian - ballot props are an absolute disaster, and have no place in a well run democracy.",
">\n\nI would absolutely love if something like this were to occur, but there is no way the parties are going to cede control over the legislating process to the public. Most discourse surrounding legislation is framed around support for or opposition to the intended result of a bill and not whether or not the bill will actually achieve that result or what specific provisions the opposition disagrees with. This lack of scrutiny allows the parties to include whatever they want in the bill so long as the public supports the intended result. A referendum that went straight to the public would be significantly narrower than any bill drafted by congress and would very likely include the common sense provisions without the sticky and disagreeable ones.\nThat said, I do think something like this would result in one party gaining a pretty solid electoral advantage over time as the general public would always have a check on the fringe of the party running amok. For example, far left democrats regularly pass very liberal laws in California that are overturned the following election cycle via referendum and the CA democrats never lose in the state. Frankly, I think this is a big reason for it. If the progressive wing ever does something that has the exact consequences everyone anticipated and the people don't want to deal with it, they just overturn the part they don't like as they did with the law that resulted in rideshare services basically boycotting the state rather than delegating their drivers as employees.",
">\n\nBecause any move that tries to act like the US is a single state as opposed to an EU confederation of states is viciously opposed by a bunch of \"more square miles than people\" states who resent things like democracy and having to convince others of your position instead of just imposing your side from whatever level of authority is currently most sympathetic to your position."
] |
Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election.
Some of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt.
Those MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare.
God help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum. | [] |
>
Thank god we have the senate and presidency… | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum."
] |
>
And how exactly are they protecting us from all of this?
Donald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…"
] |
>
It helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.
It's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not."
] |
>
Very telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything."
] |
>
It's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics! | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here."
] |
>
No they didn’t | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!"
] |
>
Where are you facts and proof? | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t"
] |
>
You’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used? | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?"
] |
>
Look at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?"
] |
>
Funny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics"
] |
>
Just always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken."
] |
>
People are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other."
] |
>
Every single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me "BoTh SiDeZ" or "Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.
The GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting."
] |
>
They’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z."
] |
>
That's sad, and really scary. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then."
] |
>
it's inevitable in my opinion.
I think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary."
] |
>
They should be ashamed, this is disgusting. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain."
] |
>
They lack a shame gland | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting."
] |
>
The lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland"
] |
>
It sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power"
] |
>
Republicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do."
] |
>
Will Gym Jordan ever get his karma? | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny."
] |
>
no, never. Failing upwards and having rich buddies must be great... | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny.",
">\n\nWill Gym Jordan ever get his karma?"
] |
>
Maybe ethics investigations shouldn't be controlled by the body that is supposed to be investigated. I know, I know, it's a radical idea. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny.",
">\n\nWill Gym Jordan ever get his karma?",
">\n\nno, never. Failing upwards and having rich buddies must be great..."
] |
>
Who else would do it? Separation of powers is a large concern - would you have wanted Trump to appoint someone to run an ethics committee? Should the totally neutral Supreme Court do it?
Ethics committees are basically pointless anyways. They don't have any actual power and literally no one wants them to find anything or make a stink. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny.",
">\n\nWill Gym Jordan ever get his karma?",
">\n\nno, never. Failing upwards and having rich buddies must be great...",
">\n\nMaybe ethics investigations shouldn't be controlled by the body that is supposed to be investigated. I know, I know, it's a radical idea."
] |
>
Hello, DOJ, please take over where the former Congressional ethics committee left off. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny.",
">\n\nWill Gym Jordan ever get his karma?",
">\n\nno, never. Failing upwards and having rich buddies must be great...",
">\n\nMaybe ethics investigations shouldn't be controlled by the body that is supposed to be investigated. I know, I know, it's a radical idea.",
">\n\nWho else would do it? Separation of powers is a large concern - would you have wanted Trump to appoint someone to run an ethics committee? Should the totally neutral Supreme Court do it?\nEthics committees are basically pointless anyways. They don't have any actual power and literally no one wants them to find anything or make a stink."
] |
>
The insanity is a large number of people voted for this corruption like it was a good thing... | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny.",
">\n\nWill Gym Jordan ever get his karma?",
">\n\nno, never. Failing upwards and having rich buddies must be great...",
">\n\nMaybe ethics investigations shouldn't be controlled by the body that is supposed to be investigated. I know, I know, it's a radical idea.",
">\n\nWho else would do it? Separation of powers is a large concern - would you have wanted Trump to appoint someone to run an ethics committee? Should the totally neutral Supreme Court do it?\nEthics committees are basically pointless anyways. They don't have any actual power and literally no one wants them to find anything or make a stink.",
">\n\nHello, DOJ, please take over where the former Congressional ethics committee left off."
] |
>
Critical thinking skills are lacking in America. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny.",
">\n\nWill Gym Jordan ever get his karma?",
">\n\nno, never. Failing upwards and having rich buddies must be great...",
">\n\nMaybe ethics investigations shouldn't be controlled by the body that is supposed to be investigated. I know, I know, it's a radical idea.",
">\n\nWho else would do it? Separation of powers is a large concern - would you have wanted Trump to appoint someone to run an ethics committee? Should the totally neutral Supreme Court do it?\nEthics committees are basically pointless anyways. They don't have any actual power and literally no one wants them to find anything or make a stink.",
">\n\nHello, DOJ, please take over where the former Congressional ethics committee left off.",
">\n\nThe insanity is a large number of people voted for this corruption like it was a good thing..."
] |
>
Those four republicans; Kevin McCarthy, Scott Perry, Jim Jordan, Andy Biggs. All connected to Jan 6 / big lie. | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny.",
">\n\nWill Gym Jordan ever get his karma?",
">\n\nno, never. Failing upwards and having rich buddies must be great...",
">\n\nMaybe ethics investigations shouldn't be controlled by the body that is supposed to be investigated. I know, I know, it's a radical idea.",
">\n\nWho else would do it? Separation of powers is a large concern - would you have wanted Trump to appoint someone to run an ethics committee? Should the totally neutral Supreme Court do it?\nEthics committees are basically pointless anyways. They don't have any actual power and literally no one wants them to find anything or make a stink.",
">\n\nHello, DOJ, please take over where the former Congressional ethics committee left off.",
">\n\nThe insanity is a large number of people voted for this corruption like it was a good thing...",
">\n\nCritical thinking skills are lacking in America."
] |
>
Amazing how quickly they've gone from "investigate the investigators" to "eliminate the investigators"! | [
"Just so we’re up to speed, McCarthy was finally voted in as Speaker just after midnight, following the 2nd anniversary of the January 6 attack on our Capitol, by the very Congressmen and women who held his speakership hostage and tried to help the former President overturn a US election. \nSome of those same Congressmen and women sought pardons for their actions, consciousness of guilt. \nThose MAGA Republicans now have the power to sway legislation that will impact American lives including trying to demolish Social Security and Medicare. \nGod help us if we have a true national emergency. If politics is insanity, the inmates are running the asylum.",
">\n\nThank god we have the senate and presidency…",
">\n\nAnd how exactly are they protecting us from all of this? \nDonald Trump needs to be in fucking jail and he’s not.",
">\n\nIt helps prevent long term damage through preventing legislation from passing like the recent house passed bill to roll back the funding for the IRS.\nIt's all still going to suck dealing with them though for anything.",
">\n\nVery telling that one of the very first actions of the GOP house was to gut the House Ethics Committee. That'd be like becoming mayor of a town and firing the police force. Yeah, totally legit, nothing to worry about here.",
">\n\nIt's what politicians do when they take power! Sorry it's the same thing democrats did when they took power. It's called politics!",
">\n\nNo they didn’t",
">\n\nWhere are you facts and proof?",
">\n\nYou’re the one saying they did, do you not understand any of the words you used?",
">\n\nLook at the revelations biden took classified documents like trump and the excuses being made. Lol! Politics",
">\n\nFunny how Biden's documents were returned the minute they were found, and didn't require a subpoena or other legal action being taken.",
">\n\nJust always amazes me how a citizen with a brain could vote for a party that supports self-regulation on one hand and refuses to police itself on the other.",
">\n\nPeople are great at compartmentalizing. The vast majority of Republican enablers I know are decent people on most other subjects. It's really disorienting.",
">\n\nEvery single Republican I know, without fail, either tells me \"BoTh SiDeZ\" or \"Im iN ThE SanE MaJorItY\". Most of them are dumb ass boomers that been voting GOP for 20+ years and have zero insight into politics besides Fox News every night.\nThe GOP is absolutely fucked by 2028 when the geriatrics die off and get replaced by Gen Z.",
">\n\nThey’re working on changing the rules. Your vote probably won’t matter in federal elections by then.",
">\n\nThat's sad, and really scary.",
">\n\nit's inevitable in my opinion. \nI think we're several years past falling off the cliff. we're just not gonna see the ground until we splat. and even when we do splat, there will be plenty of propaganda to tell us we're still climbing to the peak of the mountain.",
">\n\nThey should be ashamed, this is disgusting.",
">\n\nThey lack a shame gland",
">\n\nThe lack of shame is a feature not a bug, they would removed the shame gland with a rusty knife of it meant more power",
">\n\nIt sounds exactly like something ethically challenged people would do.",
">\n\nRepublicans know full well that they can’t withstand any level of ethics scrutiny.",
">\n\nWill Gym Jordan ever get his karma?",
">\n\nno, never. Failing upwards and having rich buddies must be great...",
">\n\nMaybe ethics investigations shouldn't be controlled by the body that is supposed to be investigated. I know, I know, it's a radical idea.",
">\n\nWho else would do it? Separation of powers is a large concern - would you have wanted Trump to appoint someone to run an ethics committee? Should the totally neutral Supreme Court do it?\nEthics committees are basically pointless anyways. They don't have any actual power and literally no one wants them to find anything or make a stink.",
">\n\nHello, DOJ, please take over where the former Congressional ethics committee left off.",
">\n\nThe insanity is a large number of people voted for this corruption like it was a good thing...",
">\n\nCritical thinking skills are lacking in America.",
">\n\nThose four republicans; Kevin McCarthy, Scott Perry, Jim Jordan, Andy Biggs. All connected to Jan 6 / big lie."
] |
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