Datasets:

---

innovation-hacking2

/

shitposting_dataset3

like 0

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5..." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\"." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!", ">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!", ">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.", ">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!", ">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.", ">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.", ">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!", ">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.", ">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.", ">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.", ">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!", ">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.", ">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.", ">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.", ">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking", ">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!", ">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.", ">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.", ">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.", ">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking", ">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.", ">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part." ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!", ">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.", ">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.", ">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.", ">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking", ">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.", ">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.", ">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?" ]

[ "It's genuinely insane that this was ever up for debate in the first place.", ">\n\nAnd an American company no less. They guilt trip you if you don't buy American, and stick you with no way to repair it yourself if you do.", ">\n\nPlus the JD service they had to use to fix their equipment wouldn’t show up promptly to fix the equipment problems. Farmers work long hours because crops don’t stop to wait for service people.", ">\n\nI thought the issue was shipping it to a service center, and software lockouts when you changed parts.\nIt's ungodly expensive to haul a john deere to a service center", ">\n\nSoftware lockouts piss me off. You fix the problem and the computer still won't let you get back to work.", ">\n\nI’ve been following this story because I have the same problem with CAT engines. The ceramic honeycomb filter that is part of the DEF system needs to be serviced regularly. A local shop can do all the steps to do the work about $1,000. For CAT service to do it. Roughly $3,000. The problem is the local guy can’t do the reset required to get the engine working so you have to call CAT service. The cost of a CAT service Tec to go into the field and reset a button starts at $400 depending on where the equipment is located.", ">\n\nCan’t someone just jailbreak this stuff?", ">\n\nI don't know much about these things, but I would imagine you wouldn't want to risk losing any type of warranty or insurance access on a piece of equipment that can cost in the hundreds of thousands to be able to skip a 400 dollar software reset.", ">\n\nIf I put an aftermarket stereo In my car the ins. Can't deny repairing the fender from an accident where I live. Is farm equipment different ? Because that seems silly.", ">\n\nwarranty and insurance aren't the same thing. even without reading the manufacturers warranty of whatever car you own I'd still pretty confidently bet that adding/altering any components that require hacking into the computer software to function would void that warranty immediately.", ">\n\nI like how farmers and cellphone modders have the same enemy", ">\n\nWait til you find out 99% of society all have the same enemy.", ">\n\nYou seem to be missing 1% there oooooooh", ">\n\nReally, it's not even the 1%. I have absolutely nothing against some guy who ended up doing really well for himself.\nIt's the 0.1% (or arguably the 0.01%) that are the real problem.", ">\n\nIt's anyone who exists off the labor of others while producing nothing themselves. Landlords, banks, investment firms, and anyone who owns things as a living.", ">\n\nTo a degree. If someone inherited a house and has no use for it, I don't blame them for renting it out instead of selling as long as they do so reasonably (i.e. we need strong regulation of landlords and rent caps). If someone worked their ass off (or worked smart) for a company and becomes a manager or higher up, they've earned the right to sit on their ass because they know how the business works. There are tons people who earn passive income through a variety of means, but it's not their fault they earn money that way, especially if they aren't being exploitative (see: many\\most landlords once again).\nIt's why taxing and auditing the rich is so important. Along with closing tax loopholes. I don't care about someone making a ton of money as long as businesses are well regulated, wages are fair across the board, and taxes are paid as they should be. If we want that to happen, it's not the rich we need to be mad at (most of the time), it's politicians who don't want to hurt the feelings of their wealthy donors.", ">\n\nI wish I had a video of my face when my wife and I were house-hunting for our home and I was talking with a co-worker about the market being nuts.\nTheir response was, \"Yeah I have been trying to buy more rental property but they just fly off the market!\"\nLike what. YOU are part of the problem! Hearing someone lament being unable to snatch up housing when there's a huge housing crisis (hell, my city has one of the highest rental occupancy rates in the country) is the most tone deaf shit.", ">\n\nIf I had my way we would tax the everliving shit out of multiple homeowners. And those taxes would go towards programs to help first-time home buyers.\nFirst homes should be encouraged. Encouraged to the point that it's practically cheap. I'm talking incentive programs that would reduce the price of a house by half or more.\nThere shouldn't be any competition against somebody buying multiple homes. It should be so weighted in the favor of a first-time buyer that they can't compete.", ">\n\nGood. I only fear now that they'll make components that can't be repaired, or make them of lower quality to force them to buy replacement parts more frequently.", ">\n\nWe’ll have to see what comes next. This is a massive win regardless. Farm mechanisms are a huge investment though, if they keep breaking down then the market might provide a solution over Deere. Though of course that’s optimistic.", ">\n\nThat’s not optimism. That’s exactly how it will work. Farmers aren’t going to tolerate inferior quality. There are too many other manufacturers who will be quick to fill the gap.", ">\n\nThat’s my thought as well. Deere is very well-established in North America but if their quality drops then they will lose market share. It would take time but farmers can’t afford to continually change out parts which used to work for decades every few years.", ">\n\nDeere is trusted by millions of people, so it would be career suicide to lower the quality of the product given the cost of the machines. Even if they just tested the waters with it, they would stand to lose billions. I don't think they'll risk reputation and value, but maybe we're both too optimistic.", ">\n\nThey already risked it by doing this shit. How many other big names are out there making farm equipment? Did their anti repair shit force anyone to go to someone else?", ">\n\nI mean don’t have like, sales records handy to back this up, but I would bet my life savings plenty of people found other options. Whether buying from a different brand, or deciding to keep repairing the old one a little longer rather than buy one of the new ones with software failures built in by design.", ">\n\nMy dad is still repairing a tractor from the 60s. No software, no problem.", ">\n\nI am from Saskatchewan, I hear it all the time from the farmers about their John Deere' and some people avoid buying the brand now. Although, it is funny, some farmers won't know how to etransfer funds and get their wives to do it but, they can bypass their john deere computer to make it run after they fixed something on it in the garage.", ">\n\nPeople can learn just about anything if their ability to eat and sleep in a building relies on them doing so.", ">\n\nThis is how I learned to get on the internet even though I am a dog.", ">\n\nYou're not supposed to let them know!", ">\n\nThem smhem they're dogs, too. It's all dogs.", ">\n\neveryone saw microtransactions and live-service gaming and thought they should do it in their own industry as well. Its a plague. Good for farmers, you should be allowed to repair things you own.", ">\n\nProfits must always go up! \nCapitalism slowly ruins absolutely everything.", ">\n\nAnything is poisonous at a certain dose. Thats why competent regulation is a must to keep capitalism from reaching its logical extreme.", ">\n\nAnd that's why capitalism also erodes and eats at regulators and Goverment bodies. We're well past that threshold.", ">\n\nAre there competitors to Deere that allow one to repair the equipment? Sorry, I don't know anything about farm implements.", ">\n\nMany. And on older models some JD can be repaired. My grandfather has been an independent diesel mechanic since the early 70s.", ">\n\nWhy not buy competitors if a farmer wanted the ability to repair their equipment if there are many?", ">\n\nPart of it is accessories. JD established a large line of easy attachments for their tractors so you got a lot of aftermarket support for various tasks while other brands may not cover as much variety with each of their equiptment.\nAnother part of it is marketing. It's why you see people being obnoxiouly loyal to a specific brands, why do people buy a Harley motorcycle or a Jeep when it cost more than it's competitors while often doing less... It's a recognized brand with lots of aftermarket support... And people are willing to pay through the nose and be shafted hard on some issues to support \"the lifestyle\"", ">\n\nI once heard it said that Harley was a T-shirt company that sold motorcycles.", ">\n\nAt least they probably make the bikes themself. There are many companies that are actually just marketing companies for a product that they subcontracted, like for example Red Bull. They didn't invent and don't make the drink, they just advertise and sell it. They are 100% a marketing company, nothing else.", ">\n\nAn MOU to avoid legislation and actual regulation, I’m guessing.", ">\n\nYup that's explicitly part of the MOU.", ">\n\nGet ready for an eyewatering level of /r/MaliciousCompliance by John Deere.", ">\n\nAlready happened:\nHere's the MOU and the money quote:\n\nAFBF agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state \"Right to Repair\" legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU. In the event any state or federal legislation or regulation relating to issues covered by this MOU and/or \"Right to Repair\" is enacted, each of AFBF and Manufacturer reserve the right, upon fifteen (15) days written notice, to withdraw from this MOU\n\nHere's a plausible theory how this might play out I've read on hackernews:\n\nDeere starts a half hearted parts process. They will provide some parts, there will be year long delays in roll out, it will be annoying to use, documentation will be made incomplete on purpose by leaving out random pages or drawings and there will be no way to get them to fix it.\nFarmers are now locked into using this service for their existing deere equipment because anything else will bankrupt them. Those machines will remain in service for a good 10-20 years which is an important time frame, because\nDeere will spin off a subsidiary or buy a competitor which will sell what used to be Deere branded technology, „under license“. This „new company“ will keep all the anti-repair technology in place. New products will primarily come from this company going forward, and the products will be priced so that actual Deere-branded products are not competitive any more, especially second-hand ones.\nIt is now 2028. The MOU cannot be broken because farmers still need parts for their \"old\" Deere products. Deere anti right to repair lives on in the artificial competitor, which now retains 90% market ownership. Farmers cannot argue for right to repair any more. They've been sold out. Everything has gone back to normal for at least the next 25 years, as far as Deere is concerned.", ">\n\nCool whats MOU and AFBF\n Cant just go around using acronyms and expect people to know. IYKWISYWAIAAF (if you know what im saying you would agree its annoying as fuck)", ">\n\nUsually I’d agree, but both acronyms are explained in the article.", ">\n\nThis is a HUGE win... Can't wait to see what awful thing all the anti right to repair companies come up with next", ">\n\nSubscriptions! Want to use seat warmers? That'll be $5 a month. A/C? $5. Reverse gear? $5...", ">\n\nThey already do. I forget exactly what they call it but the accurate to a few inches GPS is a subscription service. Can't be off by a foot when the rows are 18 inches wide.", ">\n\nFrom last time I watched any documentary about this many years ago the notion ‘the farmers will get the right to repair, but getting the ability to repair, is a different question.’ Meaning that John Deer will make tractors extremely expensive to maintain even if all the tools are available to the farmer", ">\n\nSo farmers will turn to other brands, like Lamborghini", ">\n\nDepends, if the equipment even fits in the bloody shed", ">\n\nSeems we 3 have watched the same show", ">\n\nThis isn't a win, this is a stalling tactic by John Deere. What's going to happen is that JD announces this, and gives up some minor ground but keeps the real goods locked up tighter than a drum. Six to nine months from now, you'll start seeing pieces like, \"John Deere tractors still tough to repair despite memorandum of understanding\". About a year after that the lawsuit will be revived because JD will have broken the MOU.\n!RemindMe 2 years", ">\n\nThis.\nIt's important to recognize that John Deere, Apple, Samsung, etc, are all fighting tooth and nail, clawing to try to stop LEGISLATION that will force right to repair.\nSo they do every dirty trick in the book to try to prevent that. They will make promises, sign agreements, gut legislation, spend billions on lobbiests, sneak in time bombs or traps, etc.\nAny time the volunteer to agree to something... it's a TRAP. They already have a trick figured out to blow up the proposed approach, and will blow it in 2 or 3 years when we thought Right to Repair was finally supposed to come into effect, and shout \"SURPRISE LOLOL\".\nAnd then the process repeats. Over and over and over again, across decades, with new people coming into the legislative world that can fall for the old tricks that their predecessors fell for.", ">\n\nIf this is the same 'right to repair' bill that applies to electronics, then it is a 'win' in name only.\nThe terms are still heavily stacked in favour of the manufacturers.", ">\n\nYou already know John Deere is going to be pushing the boundaries as to what's FAIR and REASONABLE. At the same time, that will be a good avenue of argument for farmers harmed by JD's antics if they keep trying to pull another fast one.", ">\n\n“Under the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"”\nSeems like a partial victory that can be abused on John Deere’s side. Anything that isn’t currently under a “trade secret” will probably end up within one.", ">\n\nI don't understand what trade secrets there could be in a piece of equipment that you sell to people. Like, they have the thing and can look at it. If someone discovers the trade secret (and aren't bound by some contract to keep it secret), they are freely allowed to publish it. That's the whole point of trade secrets--you have to keep them secret.", ">\n\nSoftware. They can make the processs of resetting check engine light a trade secret, and the software can keep the equipment from operating with the light on for \"safety.\"", ">\n\nI don't think they should be able to have both copyright and trade secret protection for the same thing (i.e., their software), but I honestly have no idea about the state of law on that topic.", ">\n\n\nUnder the agreement, equipment owners and independent technicians will not be allowed to \"divulge trade secrets\" or \"override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels.\"\n\nThis wording seems very much like NY's right-to-repair law for electronic devices. I wonder why John Deere had this change of hearth a week after that is signed. I'm guessing John Deere doesn't want to be forced like electronics device manufacturers.", ">\n\n\"President Biden signed an executive order in 2021 calling on the Federal Trade Commission to draw up a countrywide policy allowing customers to repair their own products, particularly in the technology and agriculture sectors.\"\nProbably saw the writing on the wall.", ">\n\nThis still isn't a law, I don't really trust agreements without consequences.", ">\n\nIndeed. This is a win. For John Deere.", ">\n\nWe’ve had the same issue with software locks on our Kubota tractor as well. Hopefully we can get the software soon and fix it ourselves next time.", ">\n\nHow different is it to the last minute change toothless right to repair bill in New York? Because it doesn't cover anything.", ">\n\nSimilar thing happens with McDonalds and their McFlurry machines. If they get busted or fail the employees can't fix them. They have to call the specific company who supplies and repairs them and their technicians will get to them whenever.", ">\n\nAll manufacturers are attempting to implement one scheme or another to make it impossible to own anything without further payment. Apple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence. BMW wants a monthly payment to use equipment already installed in the car like heated seats or remote start. The green eyed monster is truly an eldritch horror that is impossible to banish. I hope more cases like these correct the course.", ">\n\n\nple was found to be purposefully slowing down equipment to force obsolescence\n\nNo they slowed down old phones with degraded batteries because the phone would shut off if the CPU requested more power than it was able to provide. They didn’t tell anyone about this until after and went about it horribly, but it wasn’t to force obsolescence. It was to allow people to not have their phones shut off when they were at 30% SOC.", ">\n\n\nbattery\n\nWhich they intentionally designed to be nearly impossible for the average end user to replace, by the way. It would've been simple for the battery to be replaceable the way all phones had for DECADES, but they were shooting for planned obsolescence. Apple does not love you. Stop simping for companies.", ">\n\nThe non replaceable battery is a bigger deal. Unfortunately most cellphone manufacturers are going the same way these days. Since it lets the phones be smaller, lighter, thinner, and have larger batteries. As long as people are voting with their wallets for phones without replaceable batteries, that's what companies are going to build.", ">\n\nWhat wallet? If you want any phone above the bottom-most tier, you have to sacrifice a replaceable battery these days.", ">\n\nApple outsold Samsung, despite being inferior on specs. So Samsung decided to mimic apples form factor, which required losing the replaceable battery.\nThe voting happened years ago, and now until a phone with a replaceable battery starts outselling others, or enough governments pass laws requiring them, it's not going to go back.", ">\n\nThis is an important win. This was the corporate equivalent of property tax: you pay for it, then you keep on paying for it with no choice. It’s like saying you don’t fully own the property you fully paid for.", ">\n\nIt's not like saying they don't own it. It was their argument. They literally said things like it's our IP and you're renting it from us.", ">\n\nAs someone who works in agriculture and runs John Deere tractors I can’t tell how frustrating it is to have a DEF code come up which can happen a lot on some models and have to wait hours for a John Deere tech to come out and clear it because the software needed to do so is proprietary.", ">\n\n\"In 2022, Apple launched a \"self-service repair\" scheme giving customers the ability to replace their own batteries, screens and cameras of recent iPhones.\"\nEntirely out of the goodness of their hearts./s", ">\n\nThis is a major win for farmers. Probably the biggest victory in general for them. It's a fundamental necessity to fix one's own equipment when it inevitably breaks down. Who in their right mind at JD thought it would be okay to strong arm these guys without massive backlash? JD could've garnered some decent PR if they didn't try to pull a fast one with their software.", ">\n\nNo more needing to call out the dealer rep because you started to change a tire, triggering the (god damn fucking useless) torque sensor on the lug nut, locking out your tractors ignition. Shame on every shitbag lobbyist trying to shut down right to repair, Louis Rossman is my hero", ">\n\nNice! It's total bullshit that they can't repair their own damn equipment. They'd have to either rent or buy a trailer to haul their equipment to the nearest dealer to get their problems diagnosed -- either way it's expensive.", ">\n\nYou do realize that in this instance the repairman comes to them and just does it in the farmer’s shop, right? They don’t load their combines on trailers and drive to the nearest dealer", ">\n\nIt's also the software lockouts that don't require any transport.", ">\n\nJohn Deere still fully operational in Russia too.", ">\n\nIt should not belimited to deere, it should be broad and all emcompasing. We should have the right to modify or repair thinhs we buy so long as they meet regulitory standards if they will be interacting with tbe general public.", ">\n\nFor anyone that’s interested, my interpretation is that this may expand ECU reprogramming capabilities of customer tools. \nDiagnostic information is still through the customer version of Service Advisor. And is still a paid license. \nEngine remapping and emissions modification is still locked out. ECU physical repair is still only available to authorized third parties.", ">\n\nGood, should have never been an issue in the first place.", ">\n\nYYEEEAAAHHH\nBeen waiting for this shit for a decade, I'm not even a fucking farmer!", ">\n\nGood to see people are fighting against \"you will own nothing and be happy\".", ">\n\nJust don't purchase their ransom hardware.", ">\n\nIt’s unfortunate, that the automobile industry is headed towards the same path that John deer took, and that car owners are very likely to go through that same fight. Since a lot of automotive manufacturers are starting to imply subscription programs to charge for the use of built intergraded features, this is probably going to imply the right repair as this issue grows.", ">\n\nThis is good news. If you buy something you should 100% own it. That also means to resell/repair/mod things. JD doesn't owned their tractors once they are sold to the farmers and all farmers )and this includes products like (iPhones), owners should be the ones deciding if they want to repair and/replace the item they LEGALLY bought.", ">\n\nThis rent-seeking behavior is just another attempt to prevent serfs from becoming capitalists.", ">\n\nI saw a short doc about this about two years ago. It was about how farmers basically had to learn to hack so they could fix their own tractors and combines. Totally nuts with the cost of these things being what they are that farmers were not just sold the tools/computer programs they needed to fix em.", ">\n\nRight to repair should be a civil right", ">\n\nJohn Deere was holding everyone hostage.", ">\n\nWow, maybe it's just covid time dilation but I feel like this fight has been going on for like ten years now. Glad it has finally been resolved.", ">\n\nAbsolutely fucking wonderful. Intellectual property my ass.", ">\n\n\"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of DEF systems suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.\"\nObi wan kenobi, 2023", ">\n\nMajor win for consumer rights and small time farms", ">\n\nIm so glad that they win their right", ">\n\nThis is probably not the victory that people think it is. This is John Deere doing something because they want to avoid legislation protecting the consumers rights. \nStep in the right direction but there need to be laws guaranteeing this right", ">\n\nHope this pushes us toward some legal precedent for all right to repair issues.", ">\n\nOh wow, I genuinely didn’t think this would happen.\nHadn’t been keeping up with it though.", ">\n\nDoes this help the open market for replacement parts?", ">\n\nI wonder what was going on internally at JD where the execs had to keep convincing regular employees why it was okay to do this", ">\n\nI don't get this. Isn't a tractor like a car where you can buy OEM parts and assemble yourself?", ">\n\nThank goodness, when time counts and you have already invested, sometimes upwards of a million dollars or more.....being unable to repair your own equipment is ridiculous.", ">\n\nNow we just need to get McDonanlds to let owners repair their shake machines.", ">\n\nOr stop forcing them to buy a specific machine.", ">\n\nI used to be an oem tech for deere glad to see this happening they had been absolutely butt fucking their customers", ">\n\nDo McDonald's ice cream machines next!", ">\n\nThis should read landmark ruling for ownership in the US. \nThats what this was attempting to negate. Car companies are going to fight the other direction as well. DLC seat heaters as an example. They are there and hooked up.", ">\n\nNext up, Stellantis. I shouldn’t have to pay the stealership to flip a bit just to enable the defroster on my Jeep’s hardtop.", ">\n\nOEMs are already finding ways around Right to Repair by making parts only available as part of kits or assemblies. \nFor example, if you want to replace your phone screen, you also have to replace other components because they all come fused together in a single assembly. \nI imagine that John Deere will try something similar.", ">\n\nGotta love how crappy big companies get at times. Its like a joke. Always small companies will be better and more friendly and hardworking", ">\n\nSo somebody who went with Kubota because of this, this makes me happy to see it done. John Deere has been such a major disappointment with the fsft you cannot fix your own tractor that you bought. It's good to see farmers and new commercial win a battle like this. By the time we loaded equipment, got it to a service technician, and paid for their labor and parts, we are out of commission for weeks and paying astronomically high prices, when in reality all we needed was to remove a part, take it to a fabrication shop and have a new one made, come back, and put the part in our selves and much much cheaper and less time consuming. Even something as simple as a minor weld to fix something, like wheel fenders. It's so dumb, luckily it was a huge win for farmers now.", ">\n\nGOOD. \nFucking insane on JD part.", ">\n\nwas there really zero competition to JD that farmers could have turned to?", ">\n\nThe difference between this bill and the EU right to repair is like the difference between a limited life time warranty and an actual life time warranty.\nThe US right to repair dosnt actually make it easy to fix issues it just let third parties buy a diagnostic software, some tools and a couple manuals from John Deere at their prices, limited access to software and etc. \nWhile the EU makes it so spare parts have to be available on order for set amount of time, private access to diagnostics and repair software, access to proprietary tools and so on" ]