Datasets:

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innovation-hacking2

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shitposting_dataset1

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[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered", ">\n\nThen force the mother to work extra hours and/or regulate her spending. Don’t force someone else to be an indentured servant." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered", ">\n\nThen force the mother to work extra hours and/or regulate her spending. Don’t force someone else to be an indentured servant.", ">\n\nI'm not going to argue with you on whether or not outside actions would benefit the child (although it does seem worth mentioning that your suggesting that the best option for the mother of an infant who already isn't financially secure is to work extra hours. *THATS going to be what's best for the child?). Any other ideas you can speculate about don't matter because they aren't addressed in the original cmv.\nSo I'll reiterate my point. Promoting this view with no additional legislation or other action will harm children. These children are morally due more consideration than adults who are financially harmed." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered", ">\n\nThen force the mother to work extra hours and/or regulate her spending. Don’t force someone else to be an indentured servant.", ">\n\nI'm not going to argue with you on whether or not outside actions would benefit the child (although it does seem worth mentioning that your suggesting that the best option for the mother of an infant who already isn't financially secure is to work extra hours. *THATS going to be what's best for the child?). Any other ideas you can speculate about don't matter because they aren't addressed in the original cmv.\nSo I'll reiterate my point. Promoting this view with no additional legislation or other action will harm children. These children are morally due more consideration than adults who are financially harmed.", ">\n\nFirstly, they are not just financially harmed. We have a huge problem of debtors prison for men who don’t/can’t pay up, even if it is proven that it shouldn’t be their responsibility. You are subjecting them to imprisonment and loss of rights.\nSecond, it isn’t just financially insecure women. Its also women who are financially secure, but the budget is tight. They can give up their comforts and extras for the sake of the child. No need to drag someone else down.\nEdit: and promoting these additional legislations as you are putting it doesn’t go against the cmv at all. Saying you won’t discuss this unless other issues are also addressed isn’t even attempting to change anyone’s view." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered", ">\n\nThen force the mother to work extra hours and/or regulate her spending. Don’t force someone else to be an indentured servant.", ">\n\nI'm not going to argue with you on whether or not outside actions would benefit the child (although it does seem worth mentioning that your suggesting that the best option for the mother of an infant who already isn't financially secure is to work extra hours. *THATS going to be what's best for the child?). Any other ideas you can speculate about don't matter because they aren't addressed in the original cmv.\nSo I'll reiterate my point. Promoting this view with no additional legislation or other action will harm children. These children are morally due more consideration than adults who are financially harmed.", ">\n\nFirstly, they are not just financially harmed. We have a huge problem of debtors prison for men who don’t/can’t pay up, even if it is proven that it shouldn’t be their responsibility. You are subjecting them to imprisonment and loss of rights.\nSecond, it isn’t just financially insecure women. Its also women who are financially secure, but the budget is tight. They can give up their comforts and extras for the sake of the child. No need to drag someone else down.\nEdit: and promoting these additional legislations as you are putting it doesn’t go against the cmv at all. Saying you won’t discuss this unless other issues are also addressed isn’t even attempting to change anyone’s view.", ">\n\nBecause 1/25 fathers in the UK are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. That is a hell of a dice toss to take. Once you know that statistic, it gets damn hard to keep the full trust blinders on." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered", ">\n\nThen force the mother to work extra hours and/or regulate her spending. Don’t force someone else to be an indentured servant.", ">\n\nI'm not going to argue with you on whether or not outside actions would benefit the child (although it does seem worth mentioning that your suggesting that the best option for the mother of an infant who already isn't financially secure is to work extra hours. *THATS going to be what's best for the child?). Any other ideas you can speculate about don't matter because they aren't addressed in the original cmv.\nSo I'll reiterate my point. Promoting this view with no additional legislation or other action will harm children. These children are morally due more consideration than adults who are financially harmed.", ">\n\nFirstly, they are not just financially harmed. We have a huge problem of debtors prison for men who don’t/can’t pay up, even if it is proven that it shouldn’t be their responsibility. You are subjecting them to imprisonment and loss of rights.\nSecond, it isn’t just financially insecure women. Its also women who are financially secure, but the budget is tight. They can give up their comforts and extras for the sake of the child. No need to drag someone else down.\nEdit: and promoting these additional legislations as you are putting it doesn’t go against the cmv at all. Saying you won’t discuss this unless other issues are also addressed isn’t even attempting to change anyone’s view.", ">\n\nBecause 1/25 fathers in the UK are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. That is a hell of a dice toss to take. Once you know that statistic, it gets damn hard to keep the full trust blinders on.", ">\n\nCan you please cite a jurisdiction in which a DNA test cannot overcome the presumption of paternity created by marriage or birth certificate?\nI'm not necessarily saying it's a bad idea to get a prenatal DNA test, but I feel you've oversold the need and that one is only really necessary if there's some reason to believe that someone else may be the father. My understanding of these tests is that they're much more expensive than traditional cheek swabs due to the fact that, you know, they gotta get in at that fetus.\nAnd again, in most jurisdictions marriage or birth certificate create only a presumption of paternity which may be rebutted by evidence like a DNA test." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered", ">\n\nThen force the mother to work extra hours and/or regulate her spending. Don’t force someone else to be an indentured servant.", ">\n\nI'm not going to argue with you on whether or not outside actions would benefit the child (although it does seem worth mentioning that your suggesting that the best option for the mother of an infant who already isn't financially secure is to work extra hours. *THATS going to be what's best for the child?). Any other ideas you can speculate about don't matter because they aren't addressed in the original cmv.\nSo I'll reiterate my point. Promoting this view with no additional legislation or other action will harm children. These children are morally due more consideration than adults who are financially harmed.", ">\n\nFirstly, they are not just financially harmed. We have a huge problem of debtors prison for men who don’t/can’t pay up, even if it is proven that it shouldn’t be their responsibility. You are subjecting them to imprisonment and loss of rights.\nSecond, it isn’t just financially insecure women. Its also women who are financially secure, but the budget is tight. They can give up their comforts and extras for the sake of the child. No need to drag someone else down.\nEdit: and promoting these additional legislations as you are putting it doesn’t go against the cmv at all. Saying you won’t discuss this unless other issues are also addressed isn’t even attempting to change anyone’s view.", ">\n\nBecause 1/25 fathers in the UK are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. That is a hell of a dice toss to take. Once you know that statistic, it gets damn hard to keep the full trust blinders on.", ">\n\nCan you please cite a jurisdiction in which a DNA test cannot overcome the presumption of paternity created by marriage or birth certificate?\nI'm not necessarily saying it's a bad idea to get a prenatal DNA test, but I feel you've oversold the need and that one is only really necessary if there's some reason to believe that someone else may be the father. My understanding of these tests is that they're much more expensive than traditional cheek swabs due to the fact that, you know, they gotta get in at that fetus.\nAnd again, in most jurisdictions marriage or birth certificate create only a presumption of paternity which may be rebutted by evidence like a DNA test.", ">\n\nObjectively it is different because in a prenup you are not making assumptions about how the marriage might end. It could be their fault, it could be your fault, it could be mutual, and ideally it protects both parties. In a prenatal pregnancy test the fault can only be on the pregnant person. It is an accusation. A prenup is not an accusation. I would also be offended if my partner told me explicitly “I want to get a prenup because I believe it’s possible you will cheat on me”." ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered", ">\n\nThen force the mother to work extra hours and/or regulate her spending. Don’t force someone else to be an indentured servant.", ">\n\nI'm not going to argue with you on whether or not outside actions would benefit the child (although it does seem worth mentioning that your suggesting that the best option for the mother of an infant who already isn't financially secure is to work extra hours. *THATS going to be what's best for the child?). Any other ideas you can speculate about don't matter because they aren't addressed in the original cmv.\nSo I'll reiterate my point. Promoting this view with no additional legislation or other action will harm children. These children are morally due more consideration than adults who are financially harmed.", ">\n\nFirstly, they are not just financially harmed. We have a huge problem of debtors prison for men who don’t/can’t pay up, even if it is proven that it shouldn’t be their responsibility. You are subjecting them to imprisonment and loss of rights.\nSecond, it isn’t just financially insecure women. Its also women who are financially secure, but the budget is tight. They can give up their comforts and extras for the sake of the child. No need to drag someone else down.\nEdit: and promoting these additional legislations as you are putting it doesn’t go against the cmv at all. Saying you won’t discuss this unless other issues are also addressed isn’t even attempting to change anyone’s view.", ">\n\nBecause 1/25 fathers in the UK are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. That is a hell of a dice toss to take. Once you know that statistic, it gets damn hard to keep the full trust blinders on.", ">\n\nCan you please cite a jurisdiction in which a DNA test cannot overcome the presumption of paternity created by marriage or birth certificate?\nI'm not necessarily saying it's a bad idea to get a prenatal DNA test, but I feel you've oversold the need and that one is only really necessary if there's some reason to believe that someone else may be the father. My understanding of these tests is that they're much more expensive than traditional cheek swabs due to the fact that, you know, they gotta get in at that fetus.\nAnd again, in most jurisdictions marriage or birth certificate create only a presumption of paternity which may be rebutted by evidence like a DNA test.", ">\n\nObjectively it is different because in a prenup you are not making assumptions about how the marriage might end. It could be their fault, it could be your fault, it could be mutual, and ideally it protects both parties. In a prenatal pregnancy test the fault can only be on the pregnant person. It is an accusation. A prenup is not an accusation. I would also be offended if my partner told me explicitly “I want to get a prenup because I believe it’s possible you will cheat on me”.", ">\n\nA man asking it could lead to issues : \" don't you trust me?! \"\nUnfortunately just the woman can ask it without the risk of creating relation issues, which is kinda paradoxical cause it's something for the father" ]

[ "/u/sqeeky_wheelz (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nLegally, they're two different things.\nA prenup is designed to protect past assets i.e. pre-matrimonial assets.\nA paternity test is just whether you pay child maintenance or not. Bear in mind I'm English law based so if you can show the kid isn't yours you don't have to pay. It doesn't determine anything else. \nWhen it comes to validity of prenups, if there's no mention/provision for the kid (or child of the family, if not bio kid) then the pre nup may come up for challenge.", ">\n\nMy post isn’t that they are the same. My point is that 1) everyone should have a prenup 2) every child should have factually proven paternity. \nIf the assumed father is not the biological father 2 things should happen 1) the biological father should have a right to their child’s life. 2) the assumed father should not be held liable for child support (unless they so choose to support/care for the child)", ">\n\nThe existence of divorce laws renders prenups useless and a waste of money for the vast majority of first marriages where neither party has a pot to piss in. \nWhy the hell should everybody get a prenup when most people do not have assets until long after they are married?", ">\n\nWhy we got a prenup: \nScenario: one party stays home to take care of the kids at the sacrifice of their career and the other works hard at building a career (because the other spouse has stayed home to run the household). \nFast forward 25 years: kids are grown and the marriage has fallen apart. Because of any of the following: cheating, been lazy, been rude, simply drifted apart, one realized they were gay, etc etc etc. \nThe stay at home parent has: no career history, no pension, no savings/emergency fund. Other than shared assets (home, cars) the stay at home parent is now 45-60 and has no financial security. They will divorce and hopefully some of the working spouses money will be split equitably - but sometimes this does not happen. Depending on local laws any company retirement meat solely be theirs. Maybe they have other ways of “hiding” assets. \nHaving a prenup agreeing that the working spouse is required to pay them alimony or other “allowances/protections” to ensure that the stay at home spouse is not destitute. \nA colleague of mine recently divorced. After lawyer fees she ended up with $5K to her name. She is living on her own with her 2 kids (shared custody) with no alimony. At 47 she is back in the work force for… ever probably. Hopefully her kids will be successful enough for her to live with them in her old age.\nEdit to add: if you have a good lawyer make your prenup, it should NOT be rendered useless. In my country they definitely hold up.", ">\n\nIt seems like your country’s laws are very different then the state where I got married, which had laws that covered many of these issues for first marriages that a prenup can’t contradict. That said, I can see how your kind of prenup could help make a divorce less acrimonious by prearranging financial responsibilities. \nPerhaps your saying that a paternity test will similarly reduce the risk of any ugly surprises if a divorce occurs. I didn’t get a paternity test because I would like paternal rights if a divorce occurred, which in my country, I would have even if I’m not the biological father. Paternal rights extend beyond paying child support and includes visitation and say over important decisions for the child. Mothers don’t magically get the kids and fathers have to pay them to take care of them.", ">\n\nYes! Absolutely. I don’t think I’ve explained myself very well in my post, as people have been quiet hostile, attacking my character and marriage. But, such is the internet. \nImagine a man who’s child was raised by someone else - he tried to challenge paternity but the mother would not do a dna test. He had to watch someone else raise (what later turned out to be) his kid. Heart breaking! She could have prevented it, but spitefully didn’t. \nI heard of this happening through the grapevine so I posted here - also because I do love a debate.", ">\n\nThere is one main difference. A prenup is insurance for the future, but a DNA test is insurance on the present.\nPrenups make sense because no matter how much you trust a person now, things can change. Many people get divorced not because they were incompatible when they got married, but because the events of life made them incompatible later on. It is impossible to predict those things or even prevent them from happening. They just happen. Maybe one of the spouses gets fired from their local job, and gets an offer in a different city in a different state/province, or even country. When you married that person 10 years ago, you didn't think that moving away from your friends and family would become necessary. So, even if you trust your partner 100% in the present, a prenup is perfect sensible because you cannot guarantee that this trust will remain through all the hurdles of life\nA DNA test is different because it doubts the current state of the relationship. You are not thinking about what might happen in the unforeseen future, you are directly challenging your partner for their present actions. This means that you presently doubt your partner, which is a bit problomatic. If you don't trust your partner at present, maybe you should not be in the present relationship.\nNow, I am not saying that you should blindly trust people, and don't think a DNA test is necessarily a bad idea. However, your argument isn't that DNA tests are good, but that they are no different than prenups. If your argument is mostly about both these measure being the same, then I refute that by saying the big difference is what type of trust is being challenged. Prenups challenge the unpredictable trust that nobody know how will develop in the future. DNA tests challenge the current trust a couple has. I would say that challenging the future is more sensible than challenging the present, and certainly less abrasive in a relationship.\nEDIT: Also, prenups are even-sided, while DNA tests are one sided. If the husband asks the wife for a prenup, it is not just doubting the wife, but also doubting him. If the husband asks the wife for a DNA test, he doubts her 100%. Again, this does not mean to say they are good or bad, only that these function in a fundamentally different way.", ">\n\nFinally! Okay this is the kind of debate I posted for. \nYes the future vs present perspective is a good one, !delta \nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done? Then it’s both I suppose.", ">\n\n\nPossibly every prenup should include a clause that a paternity test will be done?\n\nThat's a sensible compromise. You trust her getting pregnant now, but who knows about her getting pregnant ten years from now.", ">\n\nI'm seeing prices around $1600. Go for it if you want to, no one is stopping you. Seems like it is like a prenup in that only those with money will be doing it.", ">\n\nThis mindset would be indicative of paranoia or mistrust, which would be a deal-breaker in a potential partner for me. For those that don’t care about these things, sure. It’s a fine system.", ">\n\nBabies aren’t always made with romantic or trust partners though. Lots of people are doing the fwb thing without commitment.", ">\n\nAnd they are free to order DNA testing in any children they are required to support.\nLeave the rest of us out of these shitty relationships, please.", ">\n\n\nNOT all children come from happily married wives and husbands.\n\nLikewise, NOT all people need a paternity test.\n\nLOTS of babies are made outside of our sacred vows and two people assume paternity\n\nLOTS more aren't.\n\nOur system has room for improvement.\n\nIf you want or feel the need for a paternity test, then get one. That's not a 'system'.", ">\n\nWho will shoulder the cost of routine paternity testing? In my country, we have national health care which is free at the point of use, and they definitely won't pay for unnecessary tests.\nI admit I am not overly familiar with American health care, however is there a risk that only well off partners will get paternity tests and normalising it will create another divide between rich and poor? Would insurance companies pay?\nIf the parents have to pay out of pocket, why would they pay extra for something they don't think they need? It's not like a house fire or robbery where you don't know what will happen in the future; the mother is already pregnant. If you aren't sure because one night stand, get the test like people already do.", ">\n\nI would see it very differently. A prenup is in the case of future, unpredictable, and uncertain changes in the relationship. We can never know what will change in the future and it makes sense to protect against it. \nOn the other hand, a paternity test is about the past. It’s to make sure there was no past breach of fidelity. I, as the woman, know I did not cheat. I trust that my partner has not cheated. Asking me to get a paternity test would be tantamount to saying you don’t trust me. If my partner insisted, I would acquiesce to the request but I’d also end the relationship because I won’t be with someone who wrongly suspects me of cheating.", ">\n\nThis is very similar to the comment I have a delta to earlier, so yes here you are !delta \nThis is an actual distinction between the two. I was actually never thinking of married children when I posted - I think there’s way more children that come from homes that get together because of the pregnancy if that makes sense, so that’s more what I was thinking of. \nAs a married woman I wouldn’t object to a pat test if I had a kid, just as I don’t object to my dr screening for STI’s at my pap smear, but from the very emotional backlash I’ve gotten here today I see I’m the minority in the “happily married” camp that doesn’t care if a pat test is don’t because it’ll just prove what I know (and who doesn’t like a little validation now and then?) \nI put the important part in ***’s because I’m tired of being told I’m psychotic for not caring.", ">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/angstyaspen (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nThey are similar but I can maybe see some good reasons for a paternity test (but not within a good marriage), on the other hand prenups are a bad idea. \nIf you need a prenup, you shouldn't be getting married.", ">\n\nMost men who were victims of paternity fraud trusted their wives. Stop blaming men for wanting to protect themselves.", ">\n\nPreviously, you couldn't do a DNA test on a fetus without an amniocentesis, which carries some level of risk (for mother and fetus). \nI've heard there's a maternal blood test that can determine paternity now, though I'm not sure how available it is.\nWhat level of risk do you think is acceptable for a prenatal DNA test? \nAnyway, as to the original point, it seems kind of rude to assume this is necessary if you're in a committed relationship.", ">\n\nRight, I will edit to add the part about the non-invasive blood draw. It is not that expensive either (at least in my country) \nI’m not worried about being “rude”. You know what else is rude? Allowing a man to be emotionally attached to and fiscally responsible for a child that is not his. \nWould the heartbreak of learning the small person you loved is the product of betrayal not be bad enough? Every child support payment would be salt in the wound.", ">\n\nYou're assuming that said father would reject the child.\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes, would that offend you? In case your might weasel of the question, think about it and ask it as is.\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\nActually, imagine you had sex with your partner AND you know she cheated on you a few hours later or before.\nAnd you know she's pregnant. Why would you want to make sure the child has your genes before knowing how you would treat them?\nI would say this has nothing to do with the child but your ego.", ">\n\n\nWhat worries you the most? That a child doesn't share your DNA or that your partner cheated on you?\n\nBoth bothers me, but the child not sharing my DNA worries me the most\n\nLet's say your partner doesn't cheat on you yet your child does not share your genes\n\nI don't understand how this is possible, can i have a further explanation on this question \n\nOr, imagine your partner cheats on you but the child has your genes? Does it offend you less?\n\nDoes this happen simultaneously? I mean she gets pregnant with my child but keeps cheating on me near the event of the impregnation? \nI think, yes, i would be more offended if I got cheated on and she got impregnated by another man", ">\n\nCan I ask why it worries you the most?\nIf I learned that my son “isn’t mine”, the marriage would be over, but I’d fight tooth and nail for custody. \nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\nHim not sharing my genes would be at the very bottom of the list of negative things in that situation.", ">\n\n\nThe love I have for the little guy has nothing to do with genes and DNA. It is built on the time I spent with him, the sleepless nights I cared for him, all the good memories I have with him. Nothing his mom could have done would ever make me look at him as not my son.\n\nI agree with you. You developed a bond so strong that nothing can destroy it.\nIf I discover that the kid is not mine before having the bond, I would not want to keep the child. \nIf I discover that the kid is not mine later, i would love him regardless", ">\n\nThat’s fair. But I’m still curious, if your partner is pregnant and she tells you she cheated on you and the kid isn’t yours, your first concern would be “the kid isn’t mine” above “the person I trusted cheated on me”?", ">\n\nLet's say she is six months pregnant and tells me \"the kid isn't yours\", my reaction would be \"what? How can the kid not being mine? Oh she cheated on me\". My concern is on the cheating. We break up and I move on.\nLet's say we just have our baby, it's been 3 months, and she tells me \"the kid isn't yours\". I would be devastated because I just lost my kid. \nHaving a kid is important for me, knowing that's not my child little after he's born, would be heart breaking and super devastating", ">\n\nThank you, it makes sense.", ">\n\nTheo feels very location dependent. \nI know where I live, if you are married within 9 months of the birth your husbands name automatically goes on the birth certificate. A prenatal DNA test would not change that. Even if the actual father is there and willing to sign the birth certificate, be cannot. You still have to take another paternity test post birth to update the birth certificate.", ">\n\nThe chance of taking the wrong bay home are not zero.", ">\n\nA prenup doesn’t indicate any level of distrust. “Let’s get a prenup so if we ever divorce for any reason we already have stuff mostly taken care of and don’t have to worry about dealing with it in our already difficult and emotional state.” While a paternity test is “you might have cheated on me” maybe there’s nothing wrong with that, but it has implications that a prenup does not, nobody has to be at fault for a prenup to be useful.", ">\n\nIf you ask for a DNA test you're saying \"I believe you cheated\". It's nothing like a prenup, prenup doesn't accuse you of anything, it's a backup plan for a future no one can predict. \nHow would you feel if your spouse said to your face that he believes you're cheating him and he won't believe you unless you go through a blood test to prove your loyalty? Would that feel good? Is it a sign of a healthy marriage? Do you really wanna encourage that?", ">\n\nI have nothing to hide. My husband has full access to my phone and location, he is welcome to a dna test if that helps his feelings. \nMy love for my husband is not bigger than my ego. If I can help him to deal with an insecurity or trust me why would I not take those steps??\nDo you love your ego more than your partner?", ">\n\nWhy people always say they have nothing to hide like expecting respect and trust from your partner is automatically a sign of dishonesty? I've never cheated, I've never been even tempted to cheat on anyone. I'm probably the most loyal person my future spouse will ever meet, but if he decides to spit false accusations on my face (doesn't matter if there's a pregnancy involved or not) that's not gonna end well.\nIf my partner can't see who I am, there's a huge problem in the relationship. If there isn't trust, why the F would I wanna cherish a marriage like that?", ">\n\n1) this post isn’t about “spitting accusations”. There are LOTS of babies who aren’t conceived within the vows of marriage. There are a lot of kids who are born to parents who hardly know each other or are in marriages where one spouse thinks they are happy and the other doesn’t. \nOn this note - I’m monogamous with my husband. When I go to the gyno they still do a swab for sti’s when they do my pap. \nWhy?? Because living my spouse and being faithful to him and TRUSTING him are NOT bigger than some things. My health is included in that. To get yourself tested for STI’s is the same ‘accusation’ as you’d call it that someone in my marriage is unfaithful. \nBut the results that I get are EXACTLY what I expect and that hurts NO ONE. \n2) it was very clearly stated in my marriage vows to my husband that if he had any doubts or anxieties or worries that he could come to me calmly (not in an accusation as you would bitterly call it) and I would do everything I could to calm his heart. That is my job as a living wife. IF the pat test is brought up calmly from a place of anxiety from a husband to a wife and she gets mean and defensive in response, well then I’d say she needs to cool her tits. I would move mountains to reassure my husband and if he needs written DNA proof that a child is his it is not my job as a living wife to be butt hurt about that but instead to supply him with the tools to calm his nerves. I am not a defensive partner to my husband. \nMaybe I’m less emotional than some people, and that’s fine. But just because I would be okay with this in my marriage doesn’t mean you get to take defence about it. That’s NOT what this CMV post is about. Frankly I don’t care about your opinions on what I would be willing to do in my marriage because your hot take doesn’t matter.", ">\n\nSTI panels are optional and it’s also a test you’re choosing to get performed on yourself. You’re suggesting that men should have a right to require women to get unnecessary medical testing and they shouldn’t be offended if they have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter how noninvasive prenatal paternity testing is now, that decision is only for the pregnant person to make.", ">\n\nYou think publicly declaring that you don't trust your wife is good for a marriage?\nYou don't see how that would undermine the foundations and create resentment and distrust.\nLook at 80% of the relationship advice reddits. It's always \"Girlfriend, If he's accusing you of cheating that means HE's the one who's actually cheating and projecting! You need to go out and get yourself some dick to make him pay! If you're gonna do the time, you might as well do the crime!\"", ">\n\nTHIS ISNT ABOUT MARRIAGE! \nThis is about knowing the fact of paternity. Whether the child’s parents are husband/wife or casual sex friends. The bio dad has the right to know their child and an imposter should not be held responsible just because of their interactions with the mother. \nIf you think that 100% of babies are a planned conception you are delusional.", ">\n\nSo, you're seriously going to go with having children and demanding proof that your wife has been faithful has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage?\nSeriously?\n\"I demand that you take a test to prove that's not another man's baby, but IT ISN'T ABOUT OUR MARRAIGE!!!!!\"\nHave you ever been married?", ">\n\n….I am the wife? \nThere are lots of marriages out there that aren’t very good. \nLet me take a step back to say: this is not a core belief of mine. I had time over lunch and wanted a debate. Y’all can calm down now.", ">\n\nAnd the men in those marriages are perfectly free to order DNA tests. Why the hell should expensive, non-medically necessary medical tests be routinely performed because some marriages suck?\nSome husbands commit murder-suicide. It has fuck-all to do with my marriage.", ">\n\nI never had a prenup with my ex-wife, or paternity tests for the children I had with her, and I can't think of a single reason why I would have wanted to have either, even after we divorced.\nWhen we married, I owned less than $10k in assets, similar for her, so there was really nothing to be protected by a prenup. It would have been a waste of time and money.\nWhen we had children (or when she had children) I had no desire not to be the legal father. What benefit could have come from a paternity test? I would have signed my name to the birth certificate regardless of the result.\nYou're right that prenups and paternity tests should be an option for people who want them. But they already are.", ">\n\nI guess my point is that the stigma should be taken away. Prenups are seen as a tool for men to hide assets. This is not true (if you do it right). \nPaternity tests are not “about trust” to me - they are a tool to protect the one parent who does not have physical proof of it being their kid. Why people get so upset over it is beyond me. If you have nothing to hide then why are they so flighty? \nAlso, I do believe if your ex made children without consent (failed birth control/lied) that you shouldn’t be liable for them - that is sexual/reproductive coercion and should be considered equal to r*pe or sexual harassment.", ">\n\nIt is beyond you why people get upset about it, really? \nAsking for a prenatal paternity is asking for proof that the woman didn’t cheat. You really can’t see why someone might get upset by that, why for many people it very much is about trust?", ">\n\nActually paternity testing cannot prove she didn't cheat. If she cheated but used birth control carefully during the affair, it could still be her husband's baby.\nThe only thing the test proves is that the child is biologically the putative father's.", ">\n\nIf you think there is a possibility your partner is cheating on you, why be with them? You shouldn't be paying for a dna test you should be paying for a therapist to deal with your trust issues.", ">\n\nThe point is that is why prenups exist as well. Pretty easy to say “why don’t you trust me” when one side doesn’t have any need for trust, they have proof. If someone wanted a dna test by default why not?", ">\n\nPrenups are a mutual agreement where partners choose what happens not only after divorce, but also during the marriage and in case of death. Paternity tests have only one use, and it is to determine the biological father (in this case to see if the partner cheated or not). When somebody asks you to do so, that's the only possible explanation is that they think you cheated. Will they ask to do it for the second child too? The third? The fourth? That is not the person I would want to be married to.", ">\n\nPrenups that dictate terms of the relationship moving forward are extremely rare and almost useless in court. \nPrenups are entirely useless for the 95 percent of marriages between people who don't have premarital assets.", ">\n\nThe assumption in all of this is that the parents won't be together, the father won't want equal custody, and to boot will be mad about supporting a child they raised because it's not biologically linked.\nThose are not normal things.", ">\n\nIts completely normal to get a divorce over your wife cheating on you, and getting pregnant from the guy she cheated on you with, and pretending that it is your child. \nNow, what you said is generally true when a father finds out several years after the child is born; Whether or not the child is biologically theirs, they have developed a relationship with that child. It is their Son/Daughter from the same perspective that a step father who comes in at birth is the parent of the child. Its nearly the same thing.\nBut having a paternity test done on the day of birth and finding out its not your kid shortly after the birth is a whole different beast.", ">\n\nIf we were living in an ideal world where every father accepts financial responsibility for their child, it would be much less of an issue. \nHowever, in reality, a lot of men just do not pay child support, and making a paternity test will not automatically lead to transferring responsibility for an assumed father to a biological father, and the ones who will be hurt the most will be children.", ">\n\nWhy should you pay for your cheating wife's kid ? She decided to cheat and had a kid out of that, she and the biological father should pay for the kid. You should not pay for other people mistakes", ">\n\nSpoiler alert: I did in fact need the disclaimer", ">\n\nWhere do you suppose your trust issues stem from?\nCheating partner in the past?\nParents unfaithful?\nDNA test kits revealing some family secrets?", ">\n\nI don’t have trust issues! And yes, I am in therapy. \nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city. And on top of that you are fiscally responsible for that child forever. Even if his bio dad is in the picture. \nIt is the same as a prenup - that’s the change my view. Protect your assets. \nA simple prenatal blood draw will clear up any confusion at all. Or a cheek swab at the hospital can prevent a baby-swap tragedy.", ">\n\n\nThink of it this way. Your wife who you loved cheated. That is bad X 100. Then you realize your kid might not be yours?! Heart break city.\n\nHow often does this series of events happen?\nIt's MGTOW hysteria that women are cheating, scheming, money-hungry whatever.\nAlso, your kid is your kid. Someone abandons a kid they raised and loved because they're not biologically related, they're an unequivocal piece of crap.", ">\n\nA UK study found that 1/25 fathers are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. The MGTOW groups would make you think its higher, but fuck me I wouldn't even put $10 24/25 odds. I hate gambling. \nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.", ">\n\n\nWhat is being discussed in this post is paternity test at birth. So there is no case of abandoning the child after spending years with them. These rapid post birth tests take a matter of hours at the hospital. So you have your results by the next day.\n\nAnd anyone can ask for that and likely destroy their relationship in the process.", ">\n\nChild support is about providing security to the child. Your proposal would diminish this security. As a society we made a choice that the security of a child is more important than a grown man's asset. Even if that man considers DNA a crucial part of what it means for him to be a parent, and even if he had a strictly monogamous understanding with his wife, the child shouldn't pay for their mother breaking that understanding.\nRaising children who are not biologically related is not an exception. It happens all the time knowingly or unknowingly, it's not biology that defines being a parent.", ">\n\nYou’re assuming the bio father would be a “worse” choice than the assumed father?? \nThis child would not be fatherless. Bio dad would be the guy to support financially and also emotionally. If you’re the father and you never know how damaging do you think that is to learn 5, 10 or 20 years down the line that the kid you could have loved didn’t even know you??", ">\n\nBy definition, it's harder to find the bio dad than it is to figure out that the presumptive bio dad (e.g. husband or partner) is not the bio dad. So this puts children at more of a risk. Your proposal doesn't make relieving the presumptive father of their support obligations conditional to actually finding the actual bio dad?\nAnd no, not really. It's your child when you have been a parent to that child. In fact, that's how the law works. Of you have assumed a parental role, you can be on the hook for child support. Because you are a parent! Being a parent is a relationship not a DNA issue.", ">\n\nExpecting women to know who they fuck is a hard thing?? (Assuming 100% consensual sex). As a women I do in fact know who I’ve let (literally) inside of me. So no - not a hurdle in my mind.\nEdit to add: I’m not saying you swab a 9 year old to determine paternity. I’m saying pregnancy before the father is involved. Give the bio dad the chance to be there!", ">\n\nI have not read through this thread since I am seeing your post after your edits. I think you are trying to make a somewhat valid point but move the goal post. \nIt should not be a taboo for a male to want a test. Every situation is different with so many factors that go into any kind of family planning or pregnancy in general which you tried to explain in the title. \nIf people trust their partner and don’t want one, great. If they have a great relationship but want one, great too. With our current society (in the US at least) it’s not like that or you would be here posting about it.", ">\n\nI am with you sister. I would actually like to see it tried as unconstitutional as you should be presumed innocent until proven guilty: You should be presumed not the father until a DNA test proves you to be", ">\n\nWhen making considerations like this the most important party to consider is the child as they have the least responsibility or power in the situation. \nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \nWhether that's the mother's fault is less important than the end result which is that no action has a better net effect for the kids than the suggested action.", ">\n\n\nIf paternity tests become more wide-spread it's highly likely that more fathers will cease to be financially responsible for a greater number of children. Wouldn't you agree. The fathers win here as a group, but the quality of life for the children will be a net negative. \n\nWhat? No. If paternity tests became more widespread fathers will still be held accountable. Non-fathers will be freed from responsibility if they choose. The only ones who wouldn’t necessarily be held accountable are the actual fathers who cannot be found.", ">\n\n\nactual fathers who cannot be found\n\nWhich would comprise a significant portion of the cases where a negative paternity test would occur.", ">\n\nSo you just want the father to be replaced by some poor guy that got lied to?\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system, not fuck over some other guy and essentially enslave him.\nEither way, OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want protection like a prenup. The majority of these cases will likely end with the named father being the actual father. So no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.", ">\n\n\nThe ideal situation if the father can’t be found is the government implements a safety system\n\nI fully and 100% agree with you. \nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nSo no, there won’t be a rise in fathers abandoning their responsibility.\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case", ">\n\n\nIf this was the case than this whole conversation would be pointless. The only reason it is being discussed is that it is not the case\n\nEven fringe cases deserve to be discussed. The frequency of a problem happening has no bearing on whether we ignore it or do to prevent it.\n\nBut this is not what op has suggested. Taking the actions op has suggested and no other actions harms children who as a group are more deserving of protection than adults.\n\nI’ll repeat. OPs whole thing was having it done by people who want a prenup like option. Why should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others. Women who are financially struggling in this situation still have the option of getting help from the government. Is it ideal? Hell no. Does it currently exist? Yes.", ">\n\n\nWhy should we continue screwing over some people until we also solve problems for others.\n\nBecause one of the groups getting screwed over is made of children. I agree with you that any innocent adults getting defrauded is unfortunate and SHOULD be addressed, but until the children in the scenario are fully taken care of no other injured party should be considered", ">\n\nThen force the mother to work extra hours and/or regulate her spending. Don’t force someone else to be an indentured servant.", ">\n\nI'm not going to argue with you on whether or not outside actions would benefit the child (although it does seem worth mentioning that your suggesting that the best option for the mother of an infant who already isn't financially secure is to work extra hours. *THATS going to be what's best for the child?). Any other ideas you can speculate about don't matter because they aren't addressed in the original cmv.\nSo I'll reiterate my point. Promoting this view with no additional legislation or other action will harm children. These children are morally due more consideration than adults who are financially harmed.", ">\n\nFirstly, they are not just financially harmed. We have a huge problem of debtors prison for men who don’t/can’t pay up, even if it is proven that it shouldn’t be their responsibility. You are subjecting them to imprisonment and loss of rights.\nSecond, it isn’t just financially insecure women. Its also women who are financially secure, but the budget is tight. They can give up their comforts and extras for the sake of the child. No need to drag someone else down.\nEdit: and promoting these additional legislations as you are putting it doesn’t go against the cmv at all. Saying you won’t discuss this unless other issues are also addressed isn’t even attempting to change anyone’s view.", ">\n\nBecause 1/25 fathers in the UK are unknowingly raising children that aren't theirs. That is a hell of a dice toss to take. Once you know that statistic, it gets damn hard to keep the full trust blinders on.", ">\n\nCan you please cite a jurisdiction in which a DNA test cannot overcome the presumption of paternity created by marriage or birth certificate?\nI'm not necessarily saying it's a bad idea to get a prenatal DNA test, but I feel you've oversold the need and that one is only really necessary if there's some reason to believe that someone else may be the father. My understanding of these tests is that they're much more expensive than traditional cheek swabs due to the fact that, you know, they gotta get in at that fetus.\nAnd again, in most jurisdictions marriage or birth certificate create only a presumption of paternity which may be rebutted by evidence like a DNA test.", ">\n\nObjectively it is different because in a prenup you are not making assumptions about how the marriage might end. It could be their fault, it could be your fault, it could be mutual, and ideally it protects both parties. In a prenatal pregnancy test the fault can only be on the pregnant person. It is an accusation. A prenup is not an accusation. I would also be offended if my partner told me explicitly “I want to get a prenup because I believe it’s possible you will cheat on me”.", ">\n\nA man asking it could lead to issues : \" don't you trust me?! \"\nUnfortunately just the woman can ask it without the risk of creating relation issues, which is kinda paradoxical cause it's something for the father", ">\n\nIf I agreed with you I would never have married nor cohabitated with a fertile woman nor had sex without double protection." ]

[]

[ "I was on mobile so it looked pretty normal as i scroll down. Till i saw that thing slowly peeking." ]

[ "I was on mobile so it looked pretty normal as i scroll down. Till i saw that thing slowly peeking.", ">\n\nglarses deskpad go SO HARD 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥" ]

[ "I was on mobile so it looked pretty normal as i scroll down. Till i saw that thing slowly peeking.", ">\n\nglarses deskpad go SO HARD 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥", ">\n\nYou should pair it with Glarses' favorite switch Cherry MX Browns" ]

[]

[ "I will never understand why people(conservatives) set on destroying as much of America as possible will be called patriots." ]

[]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways." ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment." ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5" ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5", ">\n\nI think more than half or two thirds will find ways to evade the Kremlin's tentacles." ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5", ">\n\nI think more than half or two thirds will find ways to evade the Kremlin's tentacles.", ">\n\nThen these russians will have no choice but to join the war, they will be sent to war if they are unable to flee the draft." ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5", ">\n\nI think more than half or two thirds will find ways to evade the Kremlin's tentacles.", ">\n\nThen these russians will have no choice but to join the war, they will be sent to war if they are unable to flee the draft.", ">\n\nI dunno how I feel about this, on one hand I can see the punishment it does to russian citizens, on the other hand those that are turned back will be used as conscripts to give the russian military more bodies to throw on the situation in the coming months" ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5", ">\n\nI think more than half or two thirds will find ways to evade the Kremlin's tentacles.", ">\n\nThen these russians will have no choice but to join the war, they will be sent to war if they are unable to flee the draft.", ">\n\nI dunno how I feel about this, on one hand I can see the punishment it does to russian citizens, on the other hand those that are turned back will be used as conscripts to give the russian military more bodies to throw on the situation in the coming months", ">\n\nIt's pretty simple: military units can \"flee\" across the border and reform as regular or irregular fighting units." ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5", ">\n\nI think more than half or two thirds will find ways to evade the Kremlin's tentacles.", ">\n\nThen these russians will have no choice but to join the war, they will be sent to war if they are unable to flee the draft.", ">\n\nI dunno how I feel about this, on one hand I can see the punishment it does to russian citizens, on the other hand those that are turned back will be used as conscripts to give the russian military more bodies to throw on the situation in the coming months", ">\n\nIt's pretty simple: military units can \"flee\" across the border and reform as regular or irregular fighting units.", ">\n\nOr civilians can flee and then be liberated by an invading force." ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5", ">\n\nI think more than half or two thirds will find ways to evade the Kremlin's tentacles.", ">\n\nThen these russians will have no choice but to join the war, they will be sent to war if they are unable to flee the draft.", ">\n\nI dunno how I feel about this, on one hand I can see the punishment it does to russian citizens, on the other hand those that are turned back will be used as conscripts to give the russian military more bodies to throw on the situation in the coming months", ">\n\nIt's pretty simple: military units can \"flee\" across the border and reform as regular or irregular fighting units.", ">\n\nOr civilians can flee and then be liberated by an invading force.", ">\n\nThat's a shame, immigration is good for everyone but Putin and his regime" ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5", ">\n\nI think more than half or two thirds will find ways to evade the Kremlin's tentacles.", ">\n\nThen these russians will have no choice but to join the war, they will be sent to war if they are unable to flee the draft.", ">\n\nI dunno how I feel about this, on one hand I can see the punishment it does to russian citizens, on the other hand those that are turned back will be used as conscripts to give the russian military more bodies to throw on the situation in the coming months", ">\n\nIt's pretty simple: military units can \"flee\" across the border and reform as regular or irregular fighting units.", ">\n\nOr civilians can flee and then be liberated by an invading force.", ">\n\nThat's a shame, immigration is good for everyone but Putin and his regime", ">\n\nI’m sure Putin forced Kazakhstan to do it before new wave of mobilization." ]

[ "The only way around this is to find a job with an employment contract [...]\nThis makes living long-term in the country unviable for tens of thousands of Russian citizens who have fled because of the war\n\nNot having a job makes long term living unviable. Surely if someone flees to another country they would have to find a job anyways.", ">\n\nNot if they have a remote job and bring their equipment.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nAstana has introduced tweaks to migration legislation restricting the length of time foreigners entering visa-free can spend in Kazakhstan, which will affect Russians fleeing conscription, among others.\nPreviously, there was nothing in the migration rules to prevent Russians leaving Kazakhstan after 90 days for a neighboring state such as Kyrgyzstan, then returning and staying another 90 days, ad infinitum.\nOne reason that Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan have proved attractive to \"Relokanty\" - as Russians fleeing war are known - is that Russians do not require passports, only their domestic ID cards, to enter.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Kazakhstan^#1 days^#2 Citizens^#3 Russian^#4 country^#5", ">\n\nI think more than half or two thirds will find ways to evade the Kremlin's tentacles.", ">\n\nThen these russians will have no choice but to join the war, they will be sent to war if they are unable to flee the draft.", ">\n\nI dunno how I feel about this, on one hand I can see the punishment it does to russian citizens, on the other hand those that are turned back will be used as conscripts to give the russian military more bodies to throw on the situation in the coming months", ">\n\nIt's pretty simple: military units can \"flee\" across the border and reform as regular or irregular fighting units.", ">\n\nOr civilians can flee and then be liberated by an invading force.", ">\n\nThat's a shame, immigration is good for everyone but Putin and his regime", ">\n\nI’m sure Putin forced Kazakhstan to do it before new wave of mobilization.", ">\n\nthis, this isn't punishing russia at all, its just giving them more unwilling bodies to send to the meat grinder.\nToo bad russians against the war can't overthrow their government." ]