Datasets:

---

innovation-hacking2

/

shitposting_dataset0

like 0

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working" ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group.." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP" ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?" ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past.", ">\n\nWhy change that view? It's more complicated,but that's pretty much it!" ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past.", ">\n\nWhy change that view? It's more complicated,but that's pretty much it!", ">\n\nI'm open to changing it, but I don't have a problem with my current view either. I mainly want to understand other perspectives." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past.", ">\n\nWhy change that view? It's more complicated,but that's pretty much it!", ">\n\nI'm open to changing it, but I don't have a problem with my current view either. I mainly want to understand other perspectives.", ">\n\nHonestly, the paper trail is pretty clear that you are right. People who say otherwise are typically not sufficiently educated on the topic. So I'm not sure how you would like your view changed or if you even want it changed" ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past.", ">\n\nWhy change that view? It's more complicated,but that's pretty much it!", ">\n\nI'm open to changing it, but I don't have a problem with my current view either. I mainly want to understand other perspectives.", ">\n\nHonestly, the paper trail is pretty clear that you are right. People who say otherwise are typically not sufficiently educated on the topic. So I'm not sure how you would like your view changed or if you even want it changed", ">\n\nI would like to understand other perspectives, but I'm open to changing my view if the evidence goes against it." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past.", ">\n\nWhy change that view? It's more complicated,but that's pretty much it!", ">\n\nI'm open to changing it, but I don't have a problem with my current view either. I mainly want to understand other perspectives.", ">\n\nHonestly, the paper trail is pretty clear that you are right. People who say otherwise are typically not sufficiently educated on the topic. So I'm not sure how you would like your view changed or if you even want it changed", ">\n\nI would like to understand other perspectives, but I'm open to changing my view if the evidence goes against it.", ">\n\nHow can a view be liberal, and still be challenged by arguments? You either believe things based on your personal values, or you believe things based on observed reality.\nHave you seen studies on performance which adjust for socioeconomic factors? Would you even want to? What would you do if black people still performed worse? Perhaps come up with some plausible explanation also conforming to your values?" ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past.", ">\n\nWhy change that view? It's more complicated,but that's pretty much it!", ">\n\nI'm open to changing it, but I don't have a problem with my current view either. I mainly want to understand other perspectives.", ">\n\nHonestly, the paper trail is pretty clear that you are right. People who say otherwise are typically not sufficiently educated on the topic. So I'm not sure how you would like your view changed or if you even want it changed", ">\n\nI would like to understand other perspectives, but I'm open to changing my view if the evidence goes against it.", ">\n\nHow can a view be liberal, and still be challenged by arguments? You either believe things based on your personal values, or you believe things based on observed reality.\nHave you seen studies on performance which adjust for socioeconomic factors? Would you even want to? What would you do if black people still performed worse? Perhaps come up with some plausible explanation also conforming to your values?", ">\n\nI've seen studies on performance that show when there isn't \"stereotype threat\" present, black students perform as well as white students. A rich black kid is still going to be aware of negative stereotypes. \nThere are plausible explanations that fit my values. For instance, groups that are at a disadvantage and have been discriminated against historically are more likely to form and join gangs than groups that are not at the same disadvantage." ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past.", ">\n\nWhy change that view? It's more complicated,but that's pretty much it!", ">\n\nI'm open to changing it, but I don't have a problem with my current view either. I mainly want to understand other perspectives.", ">\n\nHonestly, the paper trail is pretty clear that you are right. People who say otherwise are typically not sufficiently educated on the topic. So I'm not sure how you would like your view changed or if you even want it changed", ">\n\nI would like to understand other perspectives, but I'm open to changing my view if the evidence goes against it.", ">\n\nHow can a view be liberal, and still be challenged by arguments? You either believe things based on your personal values, or you believe things based on observed reality.\nHave you seen studies on performance which adjust for socioeconomic factors? Would you even want to? What would you do if black people still performed worse? Perhaps come up with some plausible explanation also conforming to your values?", ">\n\nI've seen studies on performance that show when there isn't \"stereotype threat\" present, black students perform as well as white students. A rich black kid is still going to be aware of negative stereotypes. \nThere are plausible explanations that fit my values. For instance, groups that are at a disadvantage and have been discriminated against historically are more likely to form and join gangs than groups that are not at the same disadvantage.", ">\n\nSuch studies are rationalized with bullshit until they fit the desired narrative. How many people do you think have the balls to do studies concluding otherwise? Who do you think has the balls to fund them?\nYou can always come up with plausible explanations which fit your values. \"IQ tests aren't culture fair\", \"There's actually 9 types of intelligence\", \"The teacher was racist\", \"math is racist\" (you can actually find argument for this on Google)" ]

[ "\"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\"\nIn the 1970s there were many Vietnamese boat people that arrived in the United States. They were quite literally foreigners, did not know the language, had NOOOO money, and about 18 years later a number of valedictorians at Southern California High Schools had last names like Ng or Nyguen. In one generation, there were children of Vietnamese boat people that became doctors and lawyers. From prestigious schools.\nClearly if America has deep racism this would be impossible. How did they do it? Well, their families stayed intact with both parents. They lived in very small apartments, or multiple families would live in one house with individual families sharing one bedroom. And those families vauled education and pushed their children to do well in school knowing that education was the path to prosperity.\n\" it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\"\nThen why are the people of Appalachia generationally poor? They are White, why is their income on average about the same as Black Americans? I will ask that question again, why are Appalachians that largely come from broken homes with absent fathers, high drug use, and without a big cultural push to educate their children out of poverty have wealth about the same as Black Americans?\nIn the United States, if you A)graduate from high school (and can do high school math, and read at a high school level), and B)get married before you make babies, and C)stay married, then you will not be poor. Approximately 97% of the people that do those steps are not poor in America.\nLack of wealth especially the lack of being able to build wealth from one generation to another has more to do with poverty, and the things that cause poverty, than then things related to race. The Vietnamese boat people proved that it is possible to THRIVE in the United States, by adopting cultural attitudes opposite of poverty.\nSo, when you say \"But many people say slavery and segregation, though wrong and evil, are not to blame for racial disparities. I don't understand the logic behind this.\" There is your answer.", ">\n\nI think one question to ask is \"did the coping mechanisms available to a group facing hardships having lasting utility?\" With that question in mind, it becomes clear that the coping mechanisms available to Black people (eg, don't excel or you'll get sold and separated from your family, you may have to act violently to protect yourself, etc) were harmful to them in the long term. A lot of norms/behaviors formed during slavery still exist in some form today (sugar/fat in most cooking; appreciation of physical ability, etc), and they are now counter-productive. \nCompare this to Jews, whose coping mechanisms after the Holocaust allowed for education and going into business (they were often limited to jewelry and banking), but where the general coping mechanisms from that time are extremely useful into today's world. \nSame with immigrants/Asians. \nYour Appalachia example fits this as well. What coping mechanisms were available to them? Not good education. Not saving money (with the \"company stores). Not improving their communities (extractive capitalism). They had booze, drugs, and sex available to them. The only coping mechanism that worked was to leave all together...", ">\n\nIf the Appalachia example fits here then that undercuts that poverty is based upon rascism from the OP.", ">\n\nI think there can be many reasons for poverty. Economic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism contributing to poverty among Blacks.", ">\n\nWhen the Title is:\n\nThe disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\n\n​\nAnd your answer is \"there can be many reasons for poverty.\"\nAnd additionally\n\nEconomic and educational factors contributing to poverty in Appalachia doesn’t negate those same factors plus racism\n\nThen you are conceding my point.\nthe OP was not \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of a bunch of economic factors that also plague Appalachia and also slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nIt was \"The disparity between the average white family income and the average black family income are the result of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking and the long term effects of slavery, segregation, and racist lawmaking\"\nThe fact that there is a sizable cohort of white Americans that have a similar average family income as black families is evidence that it was not slavery, nor segregation, nor racist lawmaking as the reason.", ">\n\nI think you actually conceded the OP’s point when you moved away from average to sub-set. :-)", ">\n\nWhile I don’t disagree with the opinion that the way people were treated in the past affects , or is it effects? , future generations , there are lots of other factors involved \nWhat about immigrants and refugees that arrive in the US with nothing ?\nAnd a few years later are earning a good living and own a home ?", ">\n\nAffects = Verb, Effects = Noun. You had it right.", ">\n\n\nEssentially because they started with zero once freed, they were and will never be able to catch up. Even if they earned the same returns as everyone else, they will still never catch up\n\nIsn't that what reparations would seek to address? I have mixed feelings about it, but I think one of the ideas behind reparations is that it would shrink that gap that otherwise can never be shrunk.", ">\n\nReparations is a varied to the point of depending on who you are talking to. \nI more wanted to highlight that if we kept everything 100% even moving forward, black family's will not bridge the wealth gap.", ">\n\nWhat about other minorities? Asians? Native Americans? Indians?", ">\n\nThe asian and Indian populations in the US are fairly recent. A majority of asian americans can be traced to post ww2 policy shifts in immigration where the US encouraged wealthy Asian families to immigrate. It's unfair for the US to try and take credit when people made their money elsewhere.\nIndian Americans are more recent but similar. The population of Indian Americans have tripled in the last decade along.", ">\n\n\n70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. \n\nIs that a bad thing? Is it important for people to get married?", ">\n\nYou realize that's not the same right? Just because you're not married doesn't mean you are a single parent family.", ">\n\n\nBlack families have a serious problem with single motherhood (parenthood).\n\nAnd you believe this is because of some inherent quality of black people?", ">\n\nI already explained where I believe that comes from.\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\nskeet skeet skeet. \"Yeah I fucked that bitch. She better not say she pregnant. That ain't my damn baby\". \nAnd the whole giving a lot more welfare to women who don't marry the babies father. Making it far more likely that they break up before the child is an adult.", ">\n\n\nPerverse incentives and bad culture.\n\nThat just leads me to ask the same question. Why do they have perverse incentives and bad culture? Do you believe it is because there is something inherently different about black people?", ">\n\nperverse incentive affect everyone the same way. They just have way more welfare recipients. But believe me I saw plenty of white people milking the system in my day. Ain't nothing special about black people in that regard.\nBlack culture.... I dunno. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's a remnant of the segregation and slavery past. Maybe it's both.\nYou know my Drill Sergeants (6 black 2 white 3 hispanic). Had an anti racist course they taught us in basic training. In the US Army. This was 2003. You know what they said? This will sound super racist to you but this was taught by black drill sergeant. He said the reason black people are so good at sports. Is because of the selection pressures that the slavers had on the black population. They wanted very strong durable slaves. That is how you get 75% black NBA and 80% black NFL. I don't know if how true that is. But yeah food for thought. It would still be racism/segregation/slavery. But in a different way.", ">\n\nCan you explain more about how welfare is affecting black people?\nI can tell you right now that people of different races actually have very minimal genetic differences to show for it. Therefore likely is as OP Is saying, and that it is due to our racist history.\nAnd your sergeant was definitely wrong about black people being bred for sports and that being why there are so many black athletes. How do I know that he is wrong? Because just a few decades ago the demographics were very different for sports. It was largely Jews who were the star athletes. What probably is more likely is that whatever minority faces the most difficulties looks to sports both as a therapeutic outlet and the way they can potentially make money.", ">\n\nThe poverty rate for Black married families is in the single digits: 7.2%. The poverty rate of unmarried Black mothers is almost 30%.\n​\nMost of Black poverty comes from unmarried Black people, mainly single moms. Almost 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock today. The majority of Black poverty today is caused by Black people choosing to have kids before they are married. \n​\nAnother seldom talked about factor in Black poverty is the average age of Black people when they first marry. In 2010, the average age when a Black couple first got married at was 30 years old. This is significantly higher than White couples at about 26-27 years old. White people usually get a head start on building wealth as a family. \n​\nThe disparity in White and Black income is due to tons of factors. The relevant question is: what is the easiest way to get the most Black people out of the poverty? The best answer seems to be encouraging Black couples to marry earlier or at least wait until they are married to have kids.", ">\n\nSo we don’t have any of that anymore, so why is the disparity still here", ">\n\n\nIn my view, it's clear that slavery and segregation had long lasting effects that have lead to the disparities we see today.\n\nIn my view it's absolutely not clear at all. What's the evidence for this?\n\nI don't understand the logic behind this. \n\nThe rule 1 of statistics is: correlation does not imply causation. So I literally don't understand the logic of people who just from seing a correlation immediately derive a conclusion. If you do that, you are doing it wrong. That's the case for e.g. gender wage gap too.\nSo in absence of evidence I don't believe in that claim. \nThat doesn't necessarily mean I believe some opposite claim. But you can look e.g. Thomas Sowell who makes the case that the reason for this whole thing is social policy; the black people were doing quite well before 1960's, even faced with segregation. Walter Williams makes similar cases: the free market actually eliminated a lot of racism by itself, black people were actually getting better. In the first half of 20th century. \nIn the end: most people today didn't get anything from their ancestors who lived 100 years ago. You may make the case that slavery is responsible for the black culture that ultimately leads to what we see today. But then, you always find \"somebody\" to blame for your problems, wouldn't you? In the meantime the asians just went to work and are doing fine.", ">\n\nDr Umar a black activist with a doctorate degree compares financial priorities of the average white family compared to the average black family. He himself explains how black america spent 2 billion dollars on air jordans, 4B on liqour and alcohol, 600M on fast food, and twice the amount of mercedes benz as white america. So the question becomes what is it the benz that makes it so attractive to the black community when they can't or barely afford it. It's a status symbol. The average black family is buying status symbols when they can barely afford to. While the average white family is not. To the degree where they are spending twice as much than a middle-class white family. If your own can't change your mind because it comes with accountability than you have already refused to change views before even making this post.", ">\n\n\nblack families had 0 wealth to pass down... it only makes sense to me that the next generation and generations after that would still be feeling the effects\n\nCounterpoint- there were immigrants that came here with literally the clothes on their backs, and that made a good living within a generation or two. So, it is possible.", ">\n\nthe half of my family that came from Ireland came with nothing but a single steamer trunk, that we still have in the family. they did not have money, in fact our last name was changed to be more \"Americanized\" at Ellis island. Part of my family fought for the union in the civil war too.\nWe are not rich by any means, in fact my mother was dirt poor and my dad was a military brat. his father ended up doing well but devoiced my dad's mother and basically left nothing to our half of the family. \nmy parents climbed their way to the middle class, and i'm working on doing the same.\nmaybe being white helped, maybe not, after all the Irish were not considered white back when my family came over here...", ">\n\nThe conflicting perspectives of W.E.B. Debois and Booker T. Washington really illustrates the evolution of black America in a few different ways.\nBefore the Civil Rights era black people seemed to hold to the perspective of Washington, and adopted the Debois view afterwards.", ">\n\nI think it’s more that the north is more racist than people think", ">\n\nThat's a good point. That's a distinct 3rd possibility. I'll add it.", ">\n\nIncome of families or individuals is not a result of inherited wealth. For most people (black and white) Income is very much what they earn from work. Of course if you’re unskilled and uneducated your income will be very low. In many cases there will not be any income to speak of. \nMost people, white, Asians or other, get education and start working in their profession. With time, they make progress, get promoted and are paid higher salaries. That is the income of majority of population. As a matter of fact many highly paid people, grew up in low income or poor families.\nFor example an Asian family I know, own a couple of properties they inherited. But that’s not what they are living off. A couple of them are employed in well paying jobs and two other own businesses: one is a doctor with a clinic and another - a lawyer who is associate at a lawyer firm. None of them live off the buildings they inherited. That money is saved.", ">\n\nAren't there more whites on welfare than blacks? Can you link me to your stat", ">\n\nBlack subculture doesn't help. \nAnd Alfonzo Rachel pointed out that socialist politicians harvest votes from the black community, but then hinder free market capitalism in improving life for that community.", ">\n\nCan you give an example of socialist politicians hindering free market capitalism in the black community?\nBlack subculture?", ">\n\nWhite folks didn't force black folks to build a multimillion-dollar rap industry glorifying gang violence and calling each other the N-word. And how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school? And rioting isn't a good way to impress white employers.\nReparations is nonsense. A hard worker doesn't use a history book as an excuse to demand handouts.\nMartin Luther King told a church in St. Louis, \"We have to do something about our moral standards. ...We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do ourselves.\"", ">\n\n\nAnd how is it white people's fault when dark-skinned adolescents drop out of school?\n\nThis is the only point I can talk on. Live in a pretty much pure white, poor, rural area. Our schools are very much underfunded. Knew a few people that didn't do well in the school system, could lay beads or swing a hammer, dropped out and got jobs in welding or construction. There were those that dropped out to smoke meth too, let's be real here. Point is the problem isn't necessarily race but crap ass schools. I did alright in mine but I wish I could have been out by 16 and started working", ">\n\nAre you saying these are the exclusive reason and that’s what you want challenged? Perhaps being more specific about what segregation means would also be helpful. \nOtherwise it’s not clear to me what you’re looking for.", ">\n\nFair enough. My view is that the reason racial gaps exist is because of segregation, slavery, and racism. \nWhen I say segregation, I mean it as it is defined in history books. \"Whites only.\" That kind of thing. Although while redlining came after segregation (segregation as in \"no black people) allowed\") it did ensure society would remain segregated. So that's definitely a contributing factor as well.", ">\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.", ">\n\n\nYour view on segregation is too narrow then. It’s plausible and likely that segregation improved during the civil rights movement but then started to resegregate as interest waned. \nThings like single family zoning, which reduce rental availability and raise home prices, are an effective method to reduce integration. It also whitens white schools. That’s easy to see if you follow school board politics even casually. “Gifted” programs can, and often do, cram white students together in black schools. \n\nI agree, redlining is not the only form of racism that still exists. But when I think of segregation I think of when there were different water fountains for black people and white people. When black people couldn't eat at certain restaurants. Anything after that I think of as racism. \n\nOther things like the war on drugs is clearly devastating as it creates fatherless households. There are some black communities that are 60% female albeit rarely. This is clearly significant and happened decades after overt segregation had ended. \nLots of stuff is ongoing I suppose would be a summary of what I’m saying.\n\nI agree, there is still racism today (far less than there was but it still definitely exists.) It certainly did not end after government enforced segregation.", ">\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. Hell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status. I would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.", ">\n\n\nThis is America. The land of opportunity. In current year, literally anybody can acquire wealth if they have the right mindset and enough determination, no matter how poor you were during your upbringing. \n\nIt's a lot more difficult to acquire wealth if you don't have a high school education though, isn't it? And more black students drop out of high school. I think there are also some statistics showing that white people with less education make the same amount as black people with more education, though I'm not too familiar with them myself. \n\nHell, just being good at sportsball can elevate you to celebrity status.\n\nIf you're exceptionally good at sports, but most people can't reach that level no matter how much they train. \n\nI would even go as far to say that with larger companies actively seeking a \"diverse\" set of employees, black people have a slight edge over white people in terms of employment opportunities.\n\nI think there's some truth to the idea that black applicants are more likely to get the job than white applicants in many situations (esp. where there are significantly more white applicants.) But Im not sure it offsets all the other obstacles.", ">\n\nIs it somehow racist policies that lead to black students dropping out of high school today? \nYou also have to add to your last point that it is significantly harder to get fired as a black American.", ">\n\nI've heard that mortgages were forbidden to black families until very recently. Generational wealth is a thing, and as you say the black people didn't have any chance to build up the generational wealth due to racist policy.\nI don't agree with every affirmative action movement that's going on right now, but I think it's definitely true that the black people are still suffering from racist laws.", ">\n\nIt’s called Redlining, and it’s not exactly forbidding a mortgage. It’s the denial of credit or lending services (amongst other things) in neighborhoods that officially pose to much of a risk for the institution to invest in, but unofficially have a lot of poor minority people in them. \nRedlining was outlawed in the mid 70’s.", ">\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. Or at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\nYour idea of racism is like saying only cigarettes can give you cancer. Or saying being poor is simply a lack of work ethic, no other factors mentioned whatsoever. \nYou're just a white supremacist with extra steps.\nYou sound as silly as Kanye screaming about Jews. it's literally the same accusation, just about a different group..", ">\n\n\nAt some point, you have to think of non white people as just as capable and industrious and fallible and autonomous as white people. \n\nOf course, I do think that. \n\nOr at least you mighty white saviors have to realize your thinking is just a roundabout way of being a white supremacist. This is just Brown Infantilism and white - both positive and negative - adulation. Essentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people\n\nI think your framing is a bit misleading. If I said \"white people in these circumstances would be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and succeed just fine but black people need additional assistance\"- yes, that's a white supremacist. But I think white people, given the same set of circumstances, would struggle just as much. So I'm not seeing how that's a white supremacist attitude. \n\nEssentially you think both everything Good and bad flows from white people.\n\nNo, I don't think that.", ">\n\nBefore I reply, just wanted to show appreciation you responded so calmly and rationally.\nYou may have never have had the outright thought, but reducing history to nothing but a racial power struggle takes away the autonomy and individuality of those people. \nI think the only thing I want from you is to say things like; redlining is one example of a disparity that has affected generational wealth.. others include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\nAnd what I have a problem with is the suggestion that \"historical racial inequality effects this monolith of child-like brown people beyond most factors today\"\nYou may not have said the words but your implications paint a picture. a racist one we've heard many times so you can stand there and say I don't think that or I never said that but from what you have said we can draw reasonable conclusions simply by thinking through what you posit.\nI recommend you listen to a few interviews with Thomas Sowell if you genuinely want the actual answer to your OP", ">\n\n\nothers include the high abortion rate, the high divorce rate, the low marriage rates, the incarceration rates and technological advancement in things like sanitary equipment and birth control and social interaction also play a factor, etc etc\"\n\nWhy are these factors in play? Did black people just choose to do them or is their outside factors at play?", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nSince it is both.\nDo they make these choices because the outside factors limit their choices.\nOr \nDo they make these choices independent of the outside factors.", ">\n\nBoth.", ">\n\nThe US does lack social mobility, but I think human societies in general are racist and until we recognise that we'll never break free from systemic racism.\nBy that I mean white people created a culture for white people, the culture had genetic selection pressures in a feedback loop. The values and most palatable beliefs, social structures etc within that culture optimized for certain personality types. It's not that they are actually good ones, it's just the ones that fit in with that type of society.\nSo inclusivity needs to start at the individual level of personality traits or it isn't ever gonna be fair.", ">\n\nAs much as I want to believe that accountability and family structure are the main things holding back the impoverished communities, it’s easy to see how the inner cities are set up to fail. Getting a HS diploma is the bare level minimum in a middle class community, but staying a live and putting food on the table are main priorities in poor communities. I would have a hard time avoiding a life of crime if I were in their shoes. That being said ignoring the majority of the crime in the inner cities isn’t doing anyone any favors. The news and politicians only focus on the issues that are self serving.", ">\n\nWhenever you look at two groups, one is going to have different numbers than the other. People with brown hair make a different amount than people with black hair. People with big noses make a different amount than people with small noses. People with moms who are 8th grade teachers make a different amount than people with moms who are 7th grade teachers. Is that because of racism? Of course not.", ">\n\nIf you amend the statement to, “Much of the disparity is due to [x],” then I’d be on board. I think that attributing all of the difference to these factors is a stretch, simply because it leaves no room for additional factors. But this is a career in statistics making me extra cautious in my language, to be fair.", ">\n\nI understand what you're saying, but in my eyes there's only one factor that segregation and racism would have little influence on and that is nature and genetics. Everything else is intertwined with racism and segregation and historical trauma. There might be another explanation not tied to racism and segregation that I'm not considering, but I can't think of one.", ">\n\nI think most liberals go one step further and say \"because these present-day inequalities are the consequence of racist treatment in the past, we need to compensate by countering the lasting effects of segregation and racism with societal programs that specifically benefit black Americans\" \nConservatives tend to disagree with this next step more than the initial premise. In their view, if you put in a social policy that benefits people with lower income, and black people tend to have lower income, then the policy will already naturally benefit that group to a greater extent. There is no need to exclude low-income white people based on the fact that they did not suffer from racist policies in the past.", ">\n\nWhy change that view? It's more complicated,but that's pretty much it!", ">\n\nI'm open to changing it, but I don't have a problem with my current view either. I mainly want to understand other perspectives.", ">\n\nHonestly, the paper trail is pretty clear that you are right. People who say otherwise are typically not sufficiently educated on the topic. So I'm not sure how you would like your view changed or if you even want it changed", ">\n\nI would like to understand other perspectives, but I'm open to changing my view if the evidence goes against it.", ">\n\nHow can a view be liberal, and still be challenged by arguments? You either believe things based on your personal values, or you believe things based on observed reality.\nHave you seen studies on performance which adjust for socioeconomic factors? Would you even want to? What would you do if black people still performed worse? Perhaps come up with some plausible explanation also conforming to your values?", ">\n\nI've seen studies on performance that show when there isn't \"stereotype threat\" present, black students perform as well as white students. A rich black kid is still going to be aware of negative stereotypes. \nThere are plausible explanations that fit my values. For instance, groups that are at a disadvantage and have been discriminated against historically are more likely to form and join gangs than groups that are not at the same disadvantage.", ">\n\nSuch studies are rationalized with bullshit until they fit the desired narrative. How many people do you think have the balls to do studies concluding otherwise? Who do you think has the balls to fund them?\nYou can always come up with plausible explanations which fit your values. \"IQ tests aren't culture fair\", \"There's actually 9 types of intelligence\", \"The teacher was racist\", \"math is racist\" (you can actually find argument for this on Google)", ">\n\n\nSuch studies are rationalized with bullshit until they fit the desired narrative. How many people do you think have the balls to do studies concluding otherwise? Who do you think has the balls to fund them?\n\nThat is true, very few scientists would release a study with a controversial finding so the ones that do end up being funded by white supremacists and the like which makes all of their findings questionable. \nBut the way I see it, while the lack of studies supporting controversial ideas is not indicative of much because a lot of scientists would choose not to publish, the studies that find that in x condition two groups performed equally well do mean something. Few scientists would risk their livelihood just to put out a BS study that makes people feel good. They could get in serious trouble for that. Plus I think scientists are curious to see for themselves what the results are, even if they might never tell anyone else. \n\nYou can always come up with plausible explanations which fit your values. \"IQ tests aren't culture fair\",\n\nA lot of IQ tests objectively are not culture fair\n\n\"There's actually 9 types of intelligence\",\n\nAccording to many leading researchers, there are multiple kinds of intelligence. And they have no reason to lie. It's not like if they say there is one type of intelligence people are going to say they are racist (or at least most people would think the accusation was ridiculous if someone did make it.) \nIt's also worth noting how the idea of more intelligence in one area= more intelligence in other areas came into being. Basically a researcher observed that students who performed well in an exam pertaining to one subject performed well in exams pertaining to other subjects. That's not exactly rigorous testing, nor were alternative possibilities tested. But despite the lack of testing they managed to get their theory about intelligence into the mainstream. \n\n\"The teacher was racist\", \"math is racist\"\n\nFew teachers are racist. I have heard the \"math is racist\" argument and it's a joke, but nobody who isn't drowning in \"whiteness\" courses believes that. But the theory of multiple intelligences is well established, as is the fact that many IQ tests are not culture fair." ]

[]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…" ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!" ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office ." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont" ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?" ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled" ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?" ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place.", ">\n\nIm not defending people who voted for him... It's very surprising he won the 3rd district of NY. It always leaned Democratic. Biden won it by 8 points. What Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear - Bill Maher put it real well. Anyways, these people aren't stupid and they are wealthy. It is a pretty prominent district with a lot of influence, they will pour their money into getting him out. Why? They are pretty embarrassed." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place.", ">\n\nIm not defending people who voted for him... It's very surprising he won the 3rd district of NY. It always leaned Democratic. Biden won it by 8 points. What Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear - Bill Maher put it real well. Anyways, these people aren't stupid and they are wealthy. It is a pretty prominent district with a lot of influence, they will pour their money into getting him out. Why? They are pretty embarrassed.", ">\n\n\nWhat Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear\n\nHe didn't bring people across the aisle, the Democrats simply didn't show up to vote.\nTotal votes in 2022 were only 271,431, compared to 372,473 in 2020, with over 80% of that loss being Dem voters.\nSantos lost in 2020 with 161,907 votes, won in 2022 with 142,472.\nSuozzi won in 2020 with 208,412, Zimmerman lost in 2022 with 120,737 votes" ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place.", ">\n\nIm not defending people who voted for him... It's very surprising he won the 3rd district of NY. It always leaned Democratic. Biden won it by 8 points. What Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear - Bill Maher put it real well. Anyways, these people aren't stupid and they are wealthy. It is a pretty prominent district with a lot of influence, they will pour their money into getting him out. Why? They are pretty embarrassed.", ">\n\n\nWhat Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear\n\nHe didn't bring people across the aisle, the Democrats simply didn't show up to vote.\nTotal votes in 2022 were only 271,431, compared to 372,473 in 2020, with over 80% of that loss being Dem voters.\nSantos lost in 2020 with 161,907 votes, won in 2022 with 142,472.\nSuozzi won in 2020 with 208,412, Zimmerman lost in 2022 with 120,737 votes", ">\n\nSantos makes popcorn and limbers up his pointing and laughing muscles." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place.", ">\n\nIm not defending people who voted for him... It's very surprising he won the 3rd district of NY. It always leaned Democratic. Biden won it by 8 points. What Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear - Bill Maher put it real well. Anyways, these people aren't stupid and they are wealthy. It is a pretty prominent district with a lot of influence, they will pour their money into getting him out. Why? They are pretty embarrassed.", ">\n\n\nWhat Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear\n\nHe didn't bring people across the aisle, the Democrats simply didn't show up to vote.\nTotal votes in 2022 were only 271,431, compared to 372,473 in 2020, with over 80% of that loss being Dem voters.\nSantos lost in 2020 with 161,907 votes, won in 2022 with 142,472.\nSuozzi won in 2020 with 208,412, Zimmerman lost in 2022 with 120,737 votes", ">\n\nSantos makes popcorn and limbers up his pointing and laughing muscles.", ">\n\nHe didn’t say he would “resign” if his constituents turned up, he said he’d “re-sign” meaning he’d sign up for the congressional baseball team." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place.", ">\n\nIm not defending people who voted for him... It's very surprising he won the 3rd district of NY. It always leaned Democratic. Biden won it by 8 points. What Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear - Bill Maher put it real well. Anyways, these people aren't stupid and they are wealthy. It is a pretty prominent district with a lot of influence, they will pour their money into getting him out. Why? They are pretty embarrassed.", ">\n\n\nWhat Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear\n\nHe didn't bring people across the aisle, the Democrats simply didn't show up to vote.\nTotal votes in 2022 were only 271,431, compared to 372,473 in 2020, with over 80% of that loss being Dem voters.\nSantos lost in 2020 with 161,907 votes, won in 2022 with 142,472.\nSuozzi won in 2020 with 208,412, Zimmerman lost in 2022 with 120,737 votes", ">\n\nSantos makes popcorn and limbers up his pointing and laughing muscles.", ">\n\nHe didn’t say he would “resign” if his constituents turned up, he said he’d “re-sign” meaning he’d sign up for the congressional baseball team.", ">\n\nIt's a shame the voting public can hire a Congressmen or Senator, but you can't fire them. Only wait till the next election." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place.", ">\n\nIm not defending people who voted for him... It's very surprising he won the 3rd district of NY. It always leaned Democratic. Biden won it by 8 points. What Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear - Bill Maher put it real well. Anyways, these people aren't stupid and they are wealthy. It is a pretty prominent district with a lot of influence, they will pour their money into getting him out. Why? They are pretty embarrassed.", ">\n\n\nWhat Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear\n\nHe didn't bring people across the aisle, the Democrats simply didn't show up to vote.\nTotal votes in 2022 were only 271,431, compared to 372,473 in 2020, with over 80% of that loss being Dem voters.\nSantos lost in 2020 with 161,907 votes, won in 2022 with 142,472.\nSuozzi won in 2020 with 208,412, Zimmerman lost in 2022 with 120,737 votes", ">\n\nSantos makes popcorn and limbers up his pointing and laughing muscles.", ">\n\nHe didn’t say he would “resign” if his constituents turned up, he said he’d “re-sign” meaning he’d sign up for the congressional baseball team.", ">\n\nIt's a shame the voting public can hire a Congressmen or Senator, but you can't fire them. Only wait till the next election.", ">\n\nAnyone else think he’s gonna pull a James Hydrick after he’s removed & go: “I only lied to prove how stupid the American people are”? I mean this guy makes Pinocchio look like Michael Jackson. Nose wise." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place.", ">\n\nIm not defending people who voted for him... It's very surprising he won the 3rd district of NY. It always leaned Democratic. Biden won it by 8 points. What Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear - Bill Maher put it real well. Anyways, these people aren't stupid and they are wealthy. It is a pretty prominent district with a lot of influence, they will pour their money into getting him out. Why? They are pretty embarrassed.", ">\n\n\nWhat Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear\n\nHe didn't bring people across the aisle, the Democrats simply didn't show up to vote.\nTotal votes in 2022 were only 271,431, compared to 372,473 in 2020, with over 80% of that loss being Dem voters.\nSantos lost in 2020 with 161,907 votes, won in 2022 with 142,472.\nSuozzi won in 2020 with 208,412, Zimmerman lost in 2022 with 120,737 votes", ">\n\nSantos makes popcorn and limbers up his pointing and laughing muscles.", ">\n\nHe didn’t say he would “resign” if his constituents turned up, he said he’d “re-sign” meaning he’d sign up for the congressional baseball team.", ">\n\nIt's a shame the voting public can hire a Congressmen or Senator, but you can't fire them. Only wait till the next election.", ">\n\nAnyone else think he’s gonna pull a James Hydrick after he’s removed & go: “I only lied to prove how stupid the American people are”? I mean this guy makes Pinocchio look like Michael Jackson. Nose wise.", ">\n\nHe has lied about every single aspect of his life. I find it funny his constituents think he WASN'T lying about leaving if they request it as well." ]

[ "They arrive at his office only to then find that he's a suit full of mice and a halloween mask. \"We had a nice run\" a thousand tiny voices squeak. The pile of clothes collapses as a torrent of rodents run from the bottom of the pants and scatter to the margins of the room.", ">\n\nI was thinking there would be a burst open cocoon and some goo, but actually that’d be a Ted Cruz not a George Santos. Whoops!\nThere really needs a refresher out there on congressional creatures. I heard a staffer almost ran into one of Majorie’s feeder tentacles the other day! Just utterly embarrassing.", ">\n\nNonsense fellow human beings do not listen to this creature. Tedcruz is one being and not several. Tedcruz has no cocoon only human items such as teeth and blood.", ">\n\nIt’s undoubtedly true he has many human teeth. I’ve seen them! Hundreds and hundreds of human teeth…", ">\n\nYou speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human!", ">\n\nWe don’t want him to resign we want his party to admit they have a issue and remove him from office .", ">\n\nThey wont", ">\n\nThe whole thing with McCarthy saying that he won't get rid of Santos because \"that's who the people voted for\" is bullshit. The people voted for a gay Latin American, not a lying piece of shit who makes a different claim every time he opens his mouth. Who he really is is NOT who the people of NY voted for.\nFuck you McCarthy, your point is moot.", ">\n\nGood for them, but.. maybe next time don't vote for him and you'll save yourself a trip.", ">\n\nThe entire Republican Party has descended into a party of con-artists and grifters. Santos conned an entire district into voting for him. The only thing the Republican Establishment finds awkward about him is how brazen he was, not with any of the lying, fraud or corruption (where did all that money come from?). He’s not an aberration. He’s a preview. He’s not going anywhere. More and more, he will be celebrated as a hero to the right-wing instead of an embarrassment.", ">\n\nGood. There’s absolutely no fucking reason he should still be holding his position.", ">\n\nCan they not recall him or something similar?", ">\n\nNo member of Congress can be recalled", ">\n\nNope. He’s pulled the ultimate con and he’s not going anywhere unless the House votes him out, and no one’s touching that provision for fear that it’ll be used against them down the road.", ">\n\nI don't want to be an asshole but why on earth are the people doing this? Any one of them can file in the State Supreme Court to have him removed. If this hasn't been done then nothing they do matters. Oh, they're gonna ask him to resign? Thats just... what world do they live in?", ">\n\nIs there a mechanism to remove a sitting congressman from office by voter recall? He’s a US representative, not a state representative. \nMy understanding is that there’s not a method of voter recall for US congressional representatives, but happy to be wrong.", ">\n\nHopefully someone informed his constituents that Washington and Washington D.C aren't the same place, they didn't feel like they were being lied to still, and are heading for the right place, otherwise people in Washington State will have to suffer the Tucker Carlson constipated confused look from many people when they cannot find the place.", ">\n\nIm not defending people who voted for him... It's very surprising he won the 3rd district of NY. It always leaned Democratic. Biden won it by 8 points. What Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear - Bill Maher put it real well. Anyways, these people aren't stupid and they are wealthy. It is a pretty prominent district with a lot of influence, they will pour their money into getting him out. Why? They are pretty embarrassed.", ">\n\n\nWhat Santos did is he appealed to both sides, told them what they wanted to hear\n\nHe didn't bring people across the aisle, the Democrats simply didn't show up to vote.\nTotal votes in 2022 were only 271,431, compared to 372,473 in 2020, with over 80% of that loss being Dem voters.\nSantos lost in 2020 with 161,907 votes, won in 2022 with 142,472.\nSuozzi won in 2020 with 208,412, Zimmerman lost in 2022 with 120,737 votes", ">\n\nSantos makes popcorn and limbers up his pointing and laughing muscles.", ">\n\nHe didn’t say he would “resign” if his constituents turned up, he said he’d “re-sign” meaning he’d sign up for the congressional baseball team.", ">\n\nIt's a shame the voting public can hire a Congressmen or Senator, but you can't fire them. Only wait till the next election.", ">\n\nAnyone else think he’s gonna pull a James Hydrick after he’s removed & go: “I only lied to prove how stupid the American people are”? I mean this guy makes Pinocchio look like Michael Jackson. Nose wise.", ">\n\nHe has lied about every single aspect of his life. I find it funny his constituents think he WASN'T lying about leaving if they request it as well.", ">\n\nNarrator: He will ignore them." ]

[]

[ "Superbugs are scary. Recognize the threat then try to convince governments and people to fight or at least control them. Stop the big polluters first." ]

[ "Superbugs are scary. Recognize the threat then try to convince governments and people to fight or at least control them. Stop the big polluters first.", ">\n\nCan someone explain this to me like I'm five? I don't really understand how pollution can cause superbugs. Did the diseases become amplified with pollution, or did the pollution actually cause it?" ]

[ "Superbugs are scary. Recognize the threat then try to convince governments and people to fight or at least control them. Stop the big polluters first.", ">\n\nCan someone explain this to me like I'm five? I don't really understand how pollution can cause superbugs. Did the diseases become amplified with pollution, or did the pollution actually cause it?", ">\n\nAs per the article:\n\nThe disinfectants, antiseptics and antibiotics that can help microbes become stronger are everywhere, from toothpaste and shampoo to cow's milk and wastewater. ...\n... The UN report Tuesday said that pollution in the environment from key economic sectors has exacerbated the problem, namely from the pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturing sectors, along with agriculture and health care.\n\nIf you know how they can come to be from general antibiotics overuse or similar, it's basically that but through environmental pollution." ]

[ "Superbugs are scary. Recognize the threat then try to convince governments and people to fight or at least control them. Stop the big polluters first.", ">\n\nCan someone explain this to me like I'm five? I don't really understand how pollution can cause superbugs. Did the diseases become amplified with pollution, or did the pollution actually cause it?", ">\n\nAs per the article:\n\nThe disinfectants, antiseptics and antibiotics that can help microbes become stronger are everywhere, from toothpaste and shampoo to cow's milk and wastewater. ...\n... The UN report Tuesday said that pollution in the environment from key economic sectors has exacerbated the problem, namely from the pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturing sectors, along with agriculture and health care.\n\nIf you know how they can come to be from general antibiotics overuse or similar, it's basically that but through environmental pollution.", ">\n\nMan I hate it when the bugs are bullet-proof. Really makes me want some heavier weapons." ]

[ "Superbugs are scary. Recognize the threat then try to convince governments and people to fight or at least control them. Stop the big polluters first.", ">\n\nCan someone explain this to me like I'm five? I don't really understand how pollution can cause superbugs. Did the diseases become amplified with pollution, or did the pollution actually cause it?", ">\n\nAs per the article:\n\nThe disinfectants, antiseptics and antibiotics that can help microbes become stronger are everywhere, from toothpaste and shampoo to cow's milk and wastewater. ...\n... The UN report Tuesday said that pollution in the environment from key economic sectors has exacerbated the problem, namely from the pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturing sectors, along with agriculture and health care.\n\nIf you know how they can come to be from general antibiotics overuse or similar, it's basically that but through environmental pollution.", ">\n\nMan I hate it when the bugs are bullet-proof. Really makes me want some heavier weapons.", ">\n\nWhat we don't know is what caliber bullet were tested on these bugs. Sure maybe they stood up to a .22 but did they unload an uzi on one yet?" ]

[ "Superbugs are scary. Recognize the threat then try to convince governments and people to fight or at least control them. Stop the big polluters first.", ">\n\nCan someone explain this to me like I'm five? I don't really understand how pollution can cause superbugs. Did the diseases become amplified with pollution, or did the pollution actually cause it?", ">\n\nAs per the article:\n\nThe disinfectants, antiseptics and antibiotics that can help microbes become stronger are everywhere, from toothpaste and shampoo to cow's milk and wastewater. ...\n... The UN report Tuesday said that pollution in the environment from key economic sectors has exacerbated the problem, namely from the pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturing sectors, along with agriculture and health care.\n\nIf you know how they can come to be from general antibiotics overuse or similar, it's basically that but through environmental pollution.", ">\n\nMan I hate it when the bugs are bullet-proof. Really makes me want some heavier weapons.", ">\n\nWhat we don't know is what caliber bullet were tested on these bugs. Sure maybe they stood up to a .22 but did they unload an uzi on one yet?", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nA new report Tuesday said pollution is a key driver in the \"Development, transmission and spread\" of AMR, calling for urgent action to clean up the environment.\n\"With increasing pollution and lack of management of sources of pollution, combined with AMR in clinical and hospital settings and agriculture, risks are increasing,\" said the report from the UN Environment Programme.\nThe UN report Tuesday said that pollution in the environment from key economic sectors has exacerbated the problem, namely from the pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturing sectors, along with agriculture and health care.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: environment^#1 pollution^#2 antimicrobial^#3 antibiotics^#4 AMR^#5" ]

[]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three.", ">\n\nI can't get mad about it. \nI can't imagine someone with good job prospects seeking out that job unless they had ties to it through family or military background. You'd have to pay me 150k a year for me to consider it." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three.", ">\n\nI can't get mad about it. \nI can't imagine someone with good job prospects seeking out that job unless they had ties to it through family or military background. You'd have to pay me 150k a year for me to consider it.", ">\n\nI think this is the issue that a lot of people on here don’t want to acknowledge. The majority of people would never even consider applying to be a cop, even if the pay was $150K. I’m guessing there are a lot of people on here who were raised and live in middle class areas and actively avoid spending time in the bad parts of town. Sure they might drive through those parts but they aren’t visiting parks, getting gas, buying food, or hanging out there. Then they wonder why there aren’t more people that share their world views and experiences applying to be police and have to not only patrol those bad parts but also respond to possibly dangerous situations there." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three.", ">\n\nI can't get mad about it. \nI can't imagine someone with good job prospects seeking out that job unless they had ties to it through family or military background. You'd have to pay me 150k a year for me to consider it.", ">\n\nI think this is the issue that a lot of people on here don’t want to acknowledge. The majority of people would never even consider applying to be a cop, even if the pay was $150K. I’m guessing there are a lot of people on here who were raised and live in middle class areas and actively avoid spending time in the bad parts of town. Sure they might drive through those parts but they aren’t visiting parks, getting gas, buying food, or hanging out there. Then they wonder why there aren’t more people that share their world views and experiences applying to be police and have to not only patrol those bad parts but also respond to possibly dangerous situations there.", ">\n\nFox News was running around and saying the lower standards were due to \"defund the police\"\n\nthe scorpion unit existed because of additional funding\nNo one \"defunded\" their police deoartment\n\nconservatives are just insane" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three.", ">\n\nI can't get mad about it. \nI can't imagine someone with good job prospects seeking out that job unless they had ties to it through family or military background. You'd have to pay me 150k a year for me to consider it.", ">\n\nI think this is the issue that a lot of people on here don’t want to acknowledge. The majority of people would never even consider applying to be a cop, even if the pay was $150K. I’m guessing there are a lot of people on here who were raised and live in middle class areas and actively avoid spending time in the bad parts of town. Sure they might drive through those parts but they aren’t visiting parks, getting gas, buying food, or hanging out there. Then they wonder why there aren’t more people that share their world views and experiences applying to be police and have to not only patrol those bad parts but also respond to possibly dangerous situations there.", ">\n\nFox News was running around and saying the lower standards were due to \"defund the police\"\n\nthe scorpion unit existed because of additional funding\nNo one \"defunded\" their police deoartment\n\nconservatives are just insane", ">\n\nI see this shit on NextDoor all the time regarding my local police as well. People report minor crimes or mentally ill homeless people disturbing the peace and how the cops show up hours later or not at all. Someone always decides to post that’s because the police were de-funded which is so easily disproved. In fact the department has only gotten budget increaess but you can’t change an opinion with logic if logic wasn’t used to form the opinion in the first place." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three.", ">\n\nI can't get mad about it. \nI can't imagine someone with good job prospects seeking out that job unless they had ties to it through family or military background. You'd have to pay me 150k a year for me to consider it.", ">\n\nI think this is the issue that a lot of people on here don’t want to acknowledge. The majority of people would never even consider applying to be a cop, even if the pay was $150K. I’m guessing there are a lot of people on here who were raised and live in middle class areas and actively avoid spending time in the bad parts of town. Sure they might drive through those parts but they aren’t visiting parks, getting gas, buying food, or hanging out there. Then they wonder why there aren’t more people that share their world views and experiences applying to be police and have to not only patrol those bad parts but also respond to possibly dangerous situations there.", ">\n\nFox News was running around and saying the lower standards were due to \"defund the police\"\n\nthe scorpion unit existed because of additional funding\nNo one \"defunded\" their police deoartment\n\nconservatives are just insane", ">\n\nI see this shit on NextDoor all the time regarding my local police as well. People report minor crimes or mentally ill homeless people disturbing the peace and how the cops show up hours later or not at all. Someone always decides to post that’s because the police were de-funded which is so easily disproved. In fact the department has only gotten budget increaess but you can’t change an opinion with logic if logic wasn’t used to form the opinion in the first place.", ">\n\nand of course\nhousing the unhoused is also off the table for these people\nbecause that would be \"bad\" for some reason\neven though ti would objectively make their lives better as well as the unhoused persons\nit's truly brainwashing" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three.", ">\n\nI can't get mad about it. \nI can't imagine someone with good job prospects seeking out that job unless they had ties to it through family or military background. You'd have to pay me 150k a year for me to consider it.", ">\n\nI think this is the issue that a lot of people on here don’t want to acknowledge. The majority of people would never even consider applying to be a cop, even if the pay was $150K. I’m guessing there are a lot of people on here who were raised and live in middle class areas and actively avoid spending time in the bad parts of town. Sure they might drive through those parts but they aren’t visiting parks, getting gas, buying food, or hanging out there. Then they wonder why there aren’t more people that share their world views and experiences applying to be police and have to not only patrol those bad parts but also respond to possibly dangerous situations there.", ">\n\nFox News was running around and saying the lower standards were due to \"defund the police\"\n\nthe scorpion unit existed because of additional funding\nNo one \"defunded\" their police deoartment\n\nconservatives are just insane", ">\n\nI see this shit on NextDoor all the time regarding my local police as well. People report minor crimes or mentally ill homeless people disturbing the peace and how the cops show up hours later or not at all. Someone always decides to post that’s because the police were de-funded which is so easily disproved. In fact the department has only gotten budget increaess but you can’t change an opinion with logic if logic wasn’t used to form the opinion in the first place.", ">\n\nand of course\nhousing the unhoused is also off the table for these people\nbecause that would be \"bad\" for some reason\neven though ti would objectively make their lives better as well as the unhoused persons\nit's truly brainwashing", ">\n\nThat they're causing and committing the crimes only made their recruitment easier." ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three.", ">\n\nI can't get mad about it. \nI can't imagine someone with good job prospects seeking out that job unless they had ties to it through family or military background. You'd have to pay me 150k a year for me to consider it.", ">\n\nI think this is the issue that a lot of people on here don’t want to acknowledge. The majority of people would never even consider applying to be a cop, even if the pay was $150K. I’m guessing there are a lot of people on here who were raised and live in middle class areas and actively avoid spending time in the bad parts of town. Sure they might drive through those parts but they aren’t visiting parks, getting gas, buying food, or hanging out there. Then they wonder why there aren’t more people that share their world views and experiences applying to be police and have to not only patrol those bad parts but also respond to possibly dangerous situations there.", ">\n\nFox News was running around and saying the lower standards were due to \"defund the police\"\n\nthe scorpion unit existed because of additional funding\nNo one \"defunded\" their police deoartment\n\nconservatives are just insane", ">\n\nI see this shit on NextDoor all the time regarding my local police as well. People report minor crimes or mentally ill homeless people disturbing the peace and how the cops show up hours later or not at all. Someone always decides to post that’s because the police were de-funded which is so easily disproved. In fact the department has only gotten budget increaess but you can’t change an opinion with logic if logic wasn’t used to form the opinion in the first place.", ">\n\nand of course\nhousing the unhoused is also off the table for these people\nbecause that would be \"bad\" for some reason\neven though ti would objectively make their lives better as well as the unhoused persons\nit's truly brainwashing", ">\n\nThat they're causing and committing the crimes only made their recruitment easier.", ">\n\nIsn't the bar dragging on the ground by now?" ]

[ "no shit. that cop couldn't run a quarter block, yet somehow got on a special crime unit.", ">\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.", ">\n\n\nIt should be made clear that the officers who killed Tyre Nichols were hired before Memphis began lowering their requirements, and were not a product of that new hiring initiative.\n\nMost important facts of the story right here. Sounds like someone is trying to obfuscate the facts", ">\n\nComes off to me like they had to set an already low bar even lower.", ">\n\nLike it's become a limbo contest.", ">\n\nOh, good. We need more badly behaved people with power and guns on the street", ">\n\nWe don't exactly have a line of studs waiting kn the wings", ">\n\nYup. The answer is probably to increase taxes and pay cops a lot better, while also increasing the education requirements to become a cop. Make it a destination job.\nThe issue is that raising taxes doesn't lead to reelection and raising the minimum requirements to become a cop may well lead to the same race discrepancies that you see in other professional fields like attorneys and doctors.", ">\n\nMaybe they could try to address some of the issues that lead to crimes before they become issues that require so many police.", ">\n\nCertainly. I imagine there are a LOT of things that can be done to help the problem.", ">\n\nThis isn't a problem caused by a \"low bar\" because this isn't a problem of individuals. This is a problem with the culture of the department (and many departments throughout the country). There's no way the SCORPION unit was all peaches and cream up until that one night, and there's no way it got to that point in secret or isolation from the rest of the department. The fact that individuals who weren't part of SCORPION, like the EMTs, contributed as they did demonstrates that.", ">\n\nBingo. That kind of behaviour doesn’t just exist in a vacuum. How many incidents do we not know about?", ">\n\nExactly. In addition to that, how many more possible police recruits today know about the pervasive culture in most police departments of brutality and lawlessness that are endorsed and covered up by those departments, and feel like that's not the kind of career they want to have? You want to talk about what is contributing to lowered rates of hiring among police agencies, that's a big part of it right there.", ">\n\nMarty McFly: \"Hey, I've Seen This One!\"", ">\n\nah yes, this will definitely turn out well", ">\n\nGreat, Chicago wants to do the same fucking thing! We’re governed by a bunch of fucking idiots!", ">\n\nBecause police departments are notorious for ridiculously high hiring standards, like not scoring too high on the iq test", ">\n\nCops don't stop crime. Everyone in the city could be a cop and you would still have rising crime. Until you deal with systemic issues such as poverty, dwindling community centers, decrepit school systems, and an over-militarized and hostile police force; nothing will change. \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records. And the police academy even dropped timing requirements on physical fitness drills and removed running entirely because too many people were failing.\n\nThese are the major issues. You get people who can't chase down a suspect, you're gonna get more cops just shooting people because they can't run 100 feet.", ">\n\nHow do we get the crooks off the street?\nGive them badges.", ">\n\nSome people will assume you’re exaggerating, but that’s exactly what they did. From the article \n\nThe department also sought state waivers to hire applicants with criminal records", ">\n\nIs hedley lamarr doing the hiring", ">\n\nIt's a literal bar. If you can limbo under it, you're in!", ">\n\nIt's so low now you just need to trip over it.", ">\n\nThe police: A welfare program for sociopathic and/or authoritarian dirtbags.", ">\n\nI thought that was TSA", ">\n\nWe’re both right! 😊", ">\n\nCheap, fast or high quality. Pick one, maybe two if you're lucky, almost never three.", ">\n\nI can't get mad about it. \nI can't imagine someone with good job prospects seeking out that job unless they had ties to it through family or military background. You'd have to pay me 150k a year for me to consider it.", ">\n\nI think this is the issue that a lot of people on here don’t want to acknowledge. The majority of people would never even consider applying to be a cop, even if the pay was $150K. I’m guessing there are a lot of people on here who were raised and live in middle class areas and actively avoid spending time in the bad parts of town. Sure they might drive through those parts but they aren’t visiting parks, getting gas, buying food, or hanging out there. Then they wonder why there aren’t more people that share their world views and experiences applying to be police and have to not only patrol those bad parts but also respond to possibly dangerous situations there.", ">\n\nFox News was running around and saying the lower standards were due to \"defund the police\"\n\nthe scorpion unit existed because of additional funding\nNo one \"defunded\" their police deoartment\n\nconservatives are just insane", ">\n\nI see this shit on NextDoor all the time regarding my local police as well. People report minor crimes or mentally ill homeless people disturbing the peace and how the cops show up hours later or not at all. Someone always decides to post that’s because the police were de-funded which is so easily disproved. In fact the department has only gotten budget increaess but you can’t change an opinion with logic if logic wasn’t used to form the opinion in the first place.", ">\n\nand of course\nhousing the unhoused is also off the table for these people\nbecause that would be \"bad\" for some reason\neven though ti would objectively make their lives better as well as the unhoused persons\nit's truly brainwashing", ">\n\nThat they're causing and committing the crimes only made their recruitment easier.", ">\n\nIsn't the bar dragging on the ground by now?", ">\n\nWouldn't it be easier if they just committed to helping people and solving crimes with the resources they have?" ]