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innovation-hacking2

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shitposting_dataset2

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[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓", ">\n\nHere come the “But if you drink alcohol or soda, you’re also killing yourself” people" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓", ">\n\nHere come the “But if you drink alcohol or soda, you’re also killing yourself” people", ">\n\nYou obviously haven't dealt with addiction in your life. That's great for you and you should be thankful for that, but you aren't perfect either and have no right to tell parents how they should or shouldn't treat their bodies. There are so many things a parent can do wrong, but I think most people would pick a cigarette smoking, loving parent, over a healthy parent that doesn't show you the love you need." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓", ">\n\nHere come the “But if you drink alcohol or soda, you’re also killing yourself” people", ">\n\nYou obviously haven't dealt with addiction in your life. That's great for you and you should be thankful for that, but you aren't perfect either and have no right to tell parents how they should or shouldn't treat their bodies. There are so many things a parent can do wrong, but I think most people would pick a cigarette smoking, loving parent, over a healthy parent that doesn't show you the love you need.", ">\n\nI was addicted to oxycodone for a few years. Snorting 4-5 blues a day. I was single though and had no dependents, have been clean for many years. That being said, what I did was selfish and I was not thinking about the people who loved me. Luckily none relied on me and oxycodone is largely benign on the body." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓", ">\n\nHere come the “But if you drink alcohol or soda, you’re also killing yourself” people", ">\n\nYou obviously haven't dealt with addiction in your life. That's great for you and you should be thankful for that, but you aren't perfect either and have no right to tell parents how they should or shouldn't treat their bodies. There are so many things a parent can do wrong, but I think most people would pick a cigarette smoking, loving parent, over a healthy parent that doesn't show you the love you need.", ">\n\nI was addicted to oxycodone for a few years. Snorting 4-5 blues a day. I was single though and had no dependents, have been clean for many years. That being said, what I did was selfish and I was not thinking about the people who loved me. Luckily none relied on me and oxycodone is largely benign on the body.", ">\n\nIf you're talking about current smokers with kids I would say yes. However, my Mom took up smoking back before the surgeon general was a thing. Also at the time science claimed cigarettes weren't harmful. Couple that with how hard it is to quit, and it's hard to fault her for becoming addicted. Smoking was socially acceptable well into the later 20th century which reinforced her addiction. Fortunately she is still around and regrets taking it up but hindsight is always 20/20." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓", ">\n\nHere come the “But if you drink alcohol or soda, you’re also killing yourself” people", ">\n\nYou obviously haven't dealt with addiction in your life. That's great for you and you should be thankful for that, but you aren't perfect either and have no right to tell parents how they should or shouldn't treat their bodies. There are so many things a parent can do wrong, but I think most people would pick a cigarette smoking, loving parent, over a healthy parent that doesn't show you the love you need.", ">\n\nI was addicted to oxycodone for a few years. Snorting 4-5 blues a day. I was single though and had no dependents, have been clean for many years. That being said, what I did was selfish and I was not thinking about the people who loved me. Luckily none relied on me and oxycodone is largely benign on the body.", ">\n\nIf you're talking about current smokers with kids I would say yes. However, my Mom took up smoking back before the surgeon general was a thing. Also at the time science claimed cigarettes weren't harmful. Couple that with how hard it is to quit, and it's hard to fault her for becoming addicted. Smoking was socially acceptable well into the later 20th century which reinforced her addiction. Fortunately she is still around and regrets taking it up but hindsight is always 20/20.", ">\n\nStrongly disagree. I started smoking at 13. I know someone that started smoking at 8. You have quite clearly never had to battle with addiction, it doesnt come down to intelligence or self control. Patches, groups and doctors don't magically cure addiction. Would you say the same to an anorexic addicted to starving? Someone addicted to cutting? Millions of smokers arent dying from laziness don't think you understand what you havent experienced I don't have kids but never ever smoke around children \nAlso how many parents are obese but no one talks about that" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓", ">\n\nHere come the “But if you drink alcohol or soda, you’re also killing yourself” people", ">\n\nYou obviously haven't dealt with addiction in your life. That's great for you and you should be thankful for that, but you aren't perfect either and have no right to tell parents how they should or shouldn't treat their bodies. There are so many things a parent can do wrong, but I think most people would pick a cigarette smoking, loving parent, over a healthy parent that doesn't show you the love you need.", ">\n\nI was addicted to oxycodone for a few years. Snorting 4-5 blues a day. I was single though and had no dependents, have been clean for many years. That being said, what I did was selfish and I was not thinking about the people who loved me. Luckily none relied on me and oxycodone is largely benign on the body.", ">\n\nIf you're talking about current smokers with kids I would say yes. However, my Mom took up smoking back before the surgeon general was a thing. Also at the time science claimed cigarettes weren't harmful. Couple that with how hard it is to quit, and it's hard to fault her for becoming addicted. Smoking was socially acceptable well into the later 20th century which reinforced her addiction. Fortunately she is still around and regrets taking it up but hindsight is always 20/20.", ">\n\nStrongly disagree. I started smoking at 13. I know someone that started smoking at 8. You have quite clearly never had to battle with addiction, it doesnt come down to intelligence or self control. Patches, groups and doctors don't magically cure addiction. Would you say the same to an anorexic addicted to starving? Someone addicted to cutting? Millions of smokers arent dying from laziness don't think you understand what you havent experienced I don't have kids but never ever smoke around children \nAlso how many parents are obese but no one talks about that", ">\n\nI mean I’ve been addicted to oxycodone so I might have some experience in this area. I also smoked cigarettes / used vapes for a year. Quitting nicotine was easier than quitting coffee and the health effects made it even easier and a no brainer." ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓", ">\n\nHere come the “But if you drink alcohol or soda, you’re also killing yourself” people", ">\n\nYou obviously haven't dealt with addiction in your life. That's great for you and you should be thankful for that, but you aren't perfect either and have no right to tell parents how they should or shouldn't treat their bodies. There are so many things a parent can do wrong, but I think most people would pick a cigarette smoking, loving parent, over a healthy parent that doesn't show you the love you need.", ">\n\nI was addicted to oxycodone for a few years. Snorting 4-5 blues a day. I was single though and had no dependents, have been clean for many years. That being said, what I did was selfish and I was not thinking about the people who loved me. Luckily none relied on me and oxycodone is largely benign on the body.", ">\n\nIf you're talking about current smokers with kids I would say yes. However, my Mom took up smoking back before the surgeon general was a thing. Also at the time science claimed cigarettes weren't harmful. Couple that with how hard it is to quit, and it's hard to fault her for becoming addicted. Smoking was socially acceptable well into the later 20th century which reinforced her addiction. Fortunately she is still around and regrets taking it up but hindsight is always 20/20.", ">\n\nStrongly disagree. I started smoking at 13. I know someone that started smoking at 8. You have quite clearly never had to battle with addiction, it doesnt come down to intelligence or self control. Patches, groups and doctors don't magically cure addiction. Would you say the same to an anorexic addicted to starving? Someone addicted to cutting? Millions of smokers arent dying from laziness don't think you understand what you havent experienced I don't have kids but never ever smoke around children \nAlso how many parents are obese but no one talks about that", ">\n\nI mean I’ve been addicted to oxycodone so I might have some experience in this area. I also smoked cigarettes / used vapes for a year. Quitting nicotine was easier than quitting coffee and the health effects made it even easier and a no brainer.", ">\n\nHonestly I don’t smoke and I despise it\nHowever there have been multiple studies that show the negative health effects of secondhand smoke are minimal to non existent \nDisgusting maybe but health and such no" ]

[ "To /u/macaroniking69, Your post is under consideration for removal for violating Rule B.\nIn our experience, the best conversations genuinely consider the other person’s perspective. Here are some techniques for keeping yourself honest:\n\nInstead of only looking for flaws in a comment, be sure to engage with the commenters’ strongest arguments — not just their weakest.\nSteelman rather than strawman. When summarizing someone’s points, look for the most reasonable interpretation of their words.\nAvoid moving the goalposts. Reread the claims in your OP or first comments and if you need to change to a new set of claims to continue arguing for your position, you might want to consider acknowledging the change in view with a delta before proceeding.\nAsk questions and really try to understand the other side, rather than trying to prove why they are wrong.\n\nPlease also take a moment to review our Rule B guidelines and really ask yourself - am I exhibiting any of these behaviors? If so, see what you can do to get the discussion back on track. Remember, the goal of CMV is to try and understand why others think differently than you do.", ">\n\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. \n\nThis applies to roughly 90% of the population in western countries, only that the dopamine high is achieved through eating shitty food (and feeding their children the same), starring at a screen rather than attending to your children, or something else, there's thousands of things that people has as a vice that could be categorized as neglecting their children.\nThat's also why some people might smoke their entire life, but otherwise eat reasonably, move daily, and other factors that will allow them to live longer than some people who may otherwise feel that they are healthy because they don't smoke. I'm willing to bet this includes you. Perspective matters, and I feel like you've isolated just one thing among many that adults tend to succumb to that is essentially self-destructive in nature. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!", ">\n\nIf I stare at my screen, the person next to me doesn't incur any consequences to their health.", ">\n\nAnd if I smoke in open air my cigarette has no consequences for your health.", ">\n\nThis view seems to be stemming from some serious judgment of cigarette smokers. You have to put your personal feelings about it aside and look at this objectively.\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish\n\nCompletely subjective. Not a strong basis for debate.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nBeing a cigarette smoker doesn't make you unable to do any of this.\nOn the subject of destroying your body for a high -- as a former smoker, I can honestly say I didn't smoke for the high, I smoked to stop the effects of withdrawal. If I had kids while I was quitting? Goddamn I'd have been an absolute wreck for months.\nSevere health issues in the future -- you could say the same thing about any number of things. Alcohol, eating unhealthy food, taking certain medications, even driving a car comes with a risk. Smoking cigarettes has nothing to do with being a capable parent, life comes with risks. Is it a good idea to take that extra one on? Probably not. But I think it's a huge and very unfair stretch to say it means they don't care about their children and have no respect for them.\nThe only way I would give this to you is if they smoke inside the house. Exposing the kids to secondhand smoke is completely disregarding the health of the children. But if they take it outside, that's their prerogative.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to blah blah blah\n\nJudgmental, subjective, and wildly untrue. Check yourself please.\n\nWith all the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements... it's pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nAgain, watch your judgmental language. \"Pathetic\" is the wrong word here. If all those things you mention work so well, then why are there still so many smokers? Nicotine replacements are supplements that don't provide the full effect of smoking, not to mention there's more that goes into a smoking addiction than just inhaling smoke (it's the routine -- going outside to your spot, opening the pack, lighting one up, and actually doing the motion of smoking, putting it to your lips, inhaling/exhaling etc. that nicotine supplements don't address). This is half the battle, when I was quitting part of the challenge was not just being able to take a break.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nWhat does this have to do with your argument that smokers are unstable parents? You just don't like smokers, that's what all this is about. You're projecting and venting and in my personal opinion, being extremely unfair.", ">\n\nAnd on that note, nicotine is an appetite suppressant.", ">\n\nA complicating factor is that many (maybe most) parents who smoke became addicted before they had children. They may even have become addicted when they themselves were minors. Even if they possess the mental capacity to understand that their habit harms their children, they still have to deal with all the challenges of overcoming their addiction.", ">\n\nHow is pushing a scientific study from science.org nonsense?\nPlus, I got my 2 moderna shots in 2021. \nIs it not natural to feel sketched out about long term effects and the studies / surprises that will pop up along the way?", ">\n\nYou seem lucky you do not know the pains of addiction. Some people know the harm they do but can’t stop because the chemical imbalance is too much. It’s not “their” choice, but the choice of “their addiction,” which is in some ways involuntary ( I know the lines here are somewhat blurry ). Just understand that no one is perfect and someone can still respect their kids and make (quite serious) mistakes. Best not to demonize those we take issue with but rather try to help them up, acknowledging their successes and helping them work on their flaws.", ">\n\nI doubt there’s anyone who doesn’t know the pain of addiction in 2023. Some people just like to think that their addictions are better than those of others.", ">\n\nthe absolute of having no respect for children unless they are causing 2nd hand smoking is such a crazy moral stretch that isn’t at all realistic when applied to the real world. Based on the argument that not keeping yourself in peak physical condition is having no respect for your kids you have to apply this to anything that takes you out of that, such as perfect diet, perfect physical actively, as well as prior knowledge of possible inherited ailments or disorders.", ">\n\nCould say the same thing about boundaries. Lots of mental health options these days, yet mothers continue to invade boundaries, or fathers neglect or vice Versa.\nBefore you get your TikTok in a twist, yes research shows the effects of trauma on people and it’s as devastating as cigarettes.", ">\n\n\nfor the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluting risk/reward\n\nNot that simple, though? Addiction isn't a choice, it's an illness. If you think quitting an addictive behaviour is as easy as a five-minute evalution of \"risk\" and \"reward\", that's pretty optimistic. It's a deep-rooted dependency. Not all smokers are sadists advocating for health issues, and (in my experience) actively try to prevent their children from picking up the habit.", ">\n\nOn top of the physical addiction, smokers associate certain things in their daily lives with having a cigarette. I vape and I’m trying to quit for the 1938483 time, and the hardest part is not having a hit when I wake up, with a coffee, after a meal, while I’m driving etc. \nPeople who’ve never dealt with a nicotine addiction don’t realize how much it affects your day to day activities. It’s incredibly hard to just wake up one day and quit cold turkey, especially if you really enjoy smoking.", ">\n\nSad part is I think OP does have experience with nicotine addiction, because they keep adding this little piece at the end of comments that says something about alternatives to smoking that give you nicotine but with less harmful effects. I'm pretty sure they're referring to vaping, which would make this whole change my view post seem pretty hypocritical since most of their point was lasting health effects that would take you away from your children early. Vaping's probably doing the same thing to us. I'm in the same boat right now, I gave up the cigarettes but now I'm stuck on the vapes. It'd be easier to quit if I didn't have a job that was so stressful, but then again that's probably just a crutch and an excuse. At the end of the day I could be doing worse things, at least I'm not on heroin.", ">\n\nThe job being stressful part is so key too. I’m a university student, and trying to study or write papers without vaping is nearly impossible, and I can’t afford to cut back my productivity by attempting to quit (or at least that’s my addict rationalization. I’d imagine raising kids is much more stressful as well.", ">\n\nIf, hypothetically, you don't understand the harm caused to your children by your smoking habit, is it still fair to say that you don't respect your children?\nThere's a difference between being malicious and being mistaken.", ">\n\nI mean if you can’t figure that out in 2023 you have to be pretty fkn stupid, no?", ">\n\nWe know now in 2023 that the use of fossil fuels in the way we do causes damage to the environment, yet they are a fundamental cornerstone of our economy, and we continue to encourage their use through ass backwards policies here in the United States, when there are clearly alternatives out there? \nIt’s 2023, and we know systemic racism is a thing in the United States but we still have people who will dead ass look you in the eye and say racism is dead. \nI mean for fucks sake man, it’s 2023 and there are still mother fuckers trying to tell us flat earth is a thing, when we have pictures of the earth from space clearly showing a ball. \nSee I can do what you did, I can clearly point out facts and say anyone not following those facts is clearly an idiot, with out taking in to consideration that there are minor contextual differences that could alter someone’s interpretation of those facts.", ">\n\nYou sound like someone who has never had a nicotine addiction. I’ve tried to quit vaping multiple times, and you underestimate how fucking incredibly difficult it is. You don’t just wake up one day and say “I think it’s time to stop ingesting nicotine” then quit on the spot. Smokers and vapers (wow that sounds lame) know the risks and nearly all know they should quit, but when you’re dealing with a chemical addiction it’s not that simple.", ">\n\nActually, that's exactly how you stop. How else could it happen?\nEven if you've made preparations, promises, switched to vapes or gum, tried and failed 10 times before, titrated down over time. At some point an intention to stop is made, and enacted.", ">\n\nOh I totally realize that’s the way to stop, it’s just incredibly hard to do. It’s the way my mother quit, but she always says that you have to really and I mean REALLY want to quit. She had made multiple attempts but always got back on the cigarettes until one day she said she just stopped enjoying it.My whole issue with vaping is that I still enjoy it, so it’s hard not to cave in to the cravings.", ">\n\nAbsolutely in agreement. I quit a long term smoking habit. I used nicotine replacements, failed over and over over a long time, the whole thing. It was hard. Until, one day, it was easy. Once the mind is set, the addiction is no stronger than a nasty cold, or sunburn, an unpleasant sensation, but surmountable.", ">\n\nHave you ever seen the stats on air pollution and health outcomes? Is everyone living in a metro area not respecting their kids? \nSmoking is bad won’t argue, but this just reads very holier than thou. You can’t ethically exist in this world bc we opening ignore stuff like: flint water crisis, asbestos in homes, lead paint still out there, aluminum wiring in housing across the nation… you ever not worn a seatbelt ? I mean I get it, but criticizing so self assuredly seems off.", ">\n\nSo, just a couple things. And I’m speaking as someone whose parents smoked all my life. The first is, they certainly weren’t smoking for the “high” feeling - they did it 100% out of habit. Any long time smoker will tell you that it’s not that they just LOVE cigarettes, it’s that they’ve built a habit and daily rituals out of smoking, and that is extremely difficult to break. My dad is actively working to quit right now with his doctor’s help, and he says it’s the habit of 35+ years that’s making it hard, the cigarettes themselves tastes awful and provide no buzz anymore. \nThe other is, are you including parents who smoke exclusively outside the house? Because that was my parents. Not once in my 32 years of life can I recall them ever smoking inside. They actually made a point to keep it outside because of me and my brother, so we were never exposed to the smoke indoors and the house didn’t smell.", ">\n\nI wouldn't say \"no respect\"\nI would say their chemical addiction to a product designed to be addictive is stronger than their will to make choices that are in the best interest of their children.", ">\n\nThere are other sources of nicotine that are significantly healthier. People just CHOOSE not to use those. \nWould you say the same for crack head, meth head, and heroin addicted parents?\nAddiction sucks, but choosing cigarettes over other alternatives instead of choosing your children means you are thinking of yourself and not them.", ">\n\nWhich alternatives are you referring to? I would hope that you're not referring to vapes, since the emerging study show that they're just as harmful, just in different ways. Also they haven't existed long enough for us to get proper long-term studies on the effects. In short if you're like me, and you gave up the cigarettes for vaping, that makes your point kind of hypocritical.", ">\n\nSource for this study? Who funded it? What is the consensus of actual scientists? Because a new study doesn’t actually disprove the old ones.", ">\n\nhere\nWell it does say they are slightly less harmful than traditional cigarettes, it also goes on to say that while we don't really know what goes into it, It's almost certainly fewer toxic chemicals than cigarettes. Still have the risk of heart and lung disease that you would get from cigarettes, as well as the addictiveness. Vaping is not a \"safe\" alternative, and while it may be a slightly safer alternative, that could be because we don't know exactly what the long-term effects of vaping are going to be, since people have only been doing it for about a decade. My point being if you are against cigarettes, but puff on a vape, you're a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on vapes, I'm puffing one myself right now, but let's not act like it's a safe alternative. We just traded one vice for another.", ">\n\nDo people in the military who go off to war have no respect for their children? People who play extreme sports with a high chance of severe injury/death? People who work in dangerous jobs? Do you feel the same way about people who have kids when they're 65?\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc. \neaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nSo cigarettes take decades to kill you (if they do), and most deaths related to cigarettes are not occurring in people of child-rearing age. If I'm a 25 or 30 year old smoker it's highly, highly unlikely that my smoking is going to kill me before my kids are raised and independent.\nMillions and millions of people have grown up in the last generation with parents who smoked (myself included!). I haven't heard anyone express that their parents had no respect for them because they smoked. Are there surveys on this that would support your view?\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nThey have the same mental capacity as non-smokers. They're keenly aware of the risks of smoking at this point and are just making a different risk/reward calculation than those who don't smoke.\nI personally don't get much out of smoking... the occasional fag while drinking is really nice, but it doesn't offer me much in day to day life. Some people just really enjoy smoking and the effects of it. The reward is greater for them, and not everyone has the perspective that trying to extend your life as long as possible is the best thing.\nAnd think about the implication of your conclusion. The parent who is heavily involved in raising their kids, treats them well, gives them a good education, instills in them the tools and skills they need to be successful in adulthood, is always there to listen, attends all the sporting events, helps with homework, and is a champion for their kid in nearly every way... \"has no respect for their children\" merely because they smoke cigarettes? You're free to think that but I don't know you'll find may people who agree with you.", ">\n\nThis is it: this is a public smokers true view. Children are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\nJust ignore all the disability and sickness and lung infections and they're obviously heroes. \nWhy would OP possibly want this view changed? There are 550 additives and all the smokers choose not to remember any of those ingredients.\nI guarantee we won't be discussing the chemistry so what's the point?\nHere is their other talking point: natural selection via pollution. All you have to do is ignore epigenetics and how each generation is getting weaker.\nI'm going to try and change OP's view by adopting a word.\nDefine grooming: the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.\nThat's why they smoke on main street and in the car with children; they're trying to groom them into littering and public smoking. It would be very lonely if the next generation didn't smoke as well.", ">\n\n\nChildren are not dropping dead at their feet therefore they're heroes for proving it's not as lethal as mustard gas.\n\nWhat? We're talking about the parent smoking, not exposing their children to secondhand smoke. You can be a smoker without exposing anyone to second hand smoke.\nI'm entirely confused by the rest of your post where you try to equate smoking to grooming children for sex.", ">\n\nYeah I'm not saying there are zero negatives, only that being a smoker doesn't necessarily mean someone has zero respect for their children.\nI'm pretty sure if we're drawing the line there, we'd have to condemn millions more parents for their decisions around cleaning products, heat sources for the home, shopping/cooking habits, air fresheners, etc. And then we're at \"very few people have any respect for their children.\"", ">\n\nI get what you are saying but people can do actions that show respect while at the same time doing bigger picture actions that show they don’t respect you and are selfish. \nFor example - Dad is great to his kids but has a mistress, cheats on the wife, and destroys the family. \nIf you found out your friend, who maybe has done tons of nice things for you, was actually fucking your girlfriend every weekend - would you say overall he respects you?", ">\n\nYou say addiction is a choice, when it clearly and plainly is not, at least past the first puff. None of your other arguments make sense once you acknowledge that.", ">\n\nNot saying that. \nWould you agree that different substances have different addiction profiles based on : Neuro addictiveness/dependance, physical dependance, and the strength of the high / euphoria?\nDrugs such as opiate, benzos/alcohol, and SSRI’s have a much much stronger addictive profile in all of those categories. Nicotine is childs play compared to the hole you dig yourself into when you become addicted to any of those. Nicotine is more on par with caffeine, and can easily be quit with willpower. \nWhile addiction is not a choice, choosing to smoke cigarettes over the multitude of healthier sources of nicotine is a choice. \nRight now it has literally never been easier to transfer your nicotine addiction to other healthier nicotine sources.", ">\n\nWhile I agree that transferring to vaping or patches or gum is definitely better, and we should all be pushing smokers in that direction, nicotine is the 3rd most addictive substance on the planet, behind cocaine and opiates, according to most experts. You're minimizing it and your conclusions flow from your incorrect estimation of its addictiveness.", ">\n\nNo, more people are addicted to nicotine because its legal, cheap, and available. Opiates either need to be prescribed or seeked out and are prohibitively expensive. \nIf they sold oxy at every gas station, 20 doses for $10, sooooooooo many more people would be addicted. \nAs someone who has gone through oxycodone withdrawal and has also gone through nicotine withdrawal, it’s literally not even close. Not even in the same ballpark how much deeper opiates bury you into addiction. \nNicotine addiction and withdrawal is on the same level as caffeine.", ">\n\nLol what if they smoke outside exclusively?", ">\n\nIt’s more about the fact that theyre killing themselves when they have loved ones depending on them then the direct smoke", ">\n\nSo you must be a huge advocate for eating clean, exercising regularly, not using drugs or alcohol ever, using only natural products, having air filters and water filters, not driving a vehicle, not traveling, not being around pollution, not living in areas of higher crime, not living in areas where natural disasters occur, etc.\nBecause all of those things can kill you and your children. So which is it? People need to make themselves invisible or you don't like cigarettes?", ">\n\nOh for sure, they’re a huge advocate for everyone to stay safe that’s why they’re anti vax as well. All the vaccines out there killing people, definitely not saving lives. \nSeems like OP is just here to bitch and complain and not actually listen to any other views.", ">\n\nLiterally double vaxxed moderna I can show you my card if you want. \nIve pointed out scientific studies from science.org, how is that antivax?", ">\n\nMy mom smoked all the way until I was around 12-14 y/o. To this day (22 currently) I LOVE the smell of cigarette smoke. It makes me feel warm and loved... and then I realize why. Please quit smoking if you have kids.", ">\n\nSpoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about addiction. Hopefully you never get addicted to anything bad. FYI I've been nicotine free for 5 years.\nNext time stick to what you know", ">\n\nI’ve literally been addicted to both oxycodone (blues) and nicotine. \nNicotine was literally the easiest thing to quit. Easier than coffee. Real drugs like oxycodone make nicotine look like childsplay.", ">\n\n\nI feel like this one is pretty self explanatory. \nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\n\nOn the contrary, the vast majority of tobacco users fully know the risk/reward, just like the vast majority of people who drink alcohol, or go sky diving, or ride a motorcycle, or over/under eat.\n\nIf you are a parent, you have children relying on you to support them, feed them, provide shelter for them etc.\n\nNot for the rest of their lives. If your 25 and a smoker, the odds of smoking killing you before you kid is in their 20s is very small and unlikely.\n\nIf you are going out of your way to destroy your body for something that provides such minimal “high” or “euphoria,” multiple times a day… then you simply don’t give a shit about your kids. You don’t give a shit that one day you might have to tell them you have a severe health issue, you don’t give a shit that your health decline could end with death, leaving your children without a father and your wife a single-mother widow.\n\nNicotine gives me the energy to do things I otherwise wouldnt. Nicotine lets me relax when I want to tear out my hair or jump off a bridge. Im not \"destroying my body\" im choosing to trade a few years of my end of life, when most people live in pain and confusion, in exchange for relaxation for many many thousands of days. Its my choice and wont affect my kids in any meaningful way.\n\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nAgain, yes we do. We know the health risks, we know the change in lifespan. How is this different then a parent who rides motorcycles? Or a parent who has kids while they work a dangerous job like a fishermen, miner, etc ? The fishermen is much more likely to die while their kids are young then a smoking office worker.\n\nWith all of the knowledge these days, support groups, doctors, nicotine replacements… it’s pathetic to continue to put your health and your families wellbeing at risk.\n\nWe do this all the time, it's hardly just smokers. The vast majority of us have horrific diets, the vast majority drink alcohol, a ton of us take medications with bad side effects that will affect us our whole lives. Many of us drive dangerously and we know it, The list never ends.\n\nOh and you smell terrible.\n\nHere is the true reason, and too bad for you. I like the smell and have since I was a kid.\nEither way, CMV on this", ">\n\n😂 Dude, get real.\nWhen I was a kid, my dad smashed his hip and femur driving a motorcycle. A few years ago, he died in an accident, leaving behind my then 15 year old brother. My dad didn't mean to be selfish, but he was. Many people told him he was a fool to keep riding after his accident, but he thought fun was more important.\nDangerous jobs can be selfish and irresponsible depending on the circumstances. I argue you shouldn't work on an oil rig if you have kids and if you have other options. That's clearly different, though. People need to make money. Society needs fishermen and loggers. Nobody needs to smoke or drive motorcycles. The world would flat-out be a better place if they didn't exist.\nOP needs to realize quitting cigarettes can be hard or impossible for people. I've known plenty of people - parents, even - who have continously tried and continously failed. Despite failing, they demonstrate what it means to acknowledge you have flaws and work on them. \nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.", ">\n\n\nYou don't even accept you have a flaw - you're clearly rationalizing. I don't think smoking (or driving motorcycles) is that big of a deal. Do it, I'll even sit with you as you're on a smoke break. We all have flaws, and I'm sure trying to quit is exhausting and discouraging. But don't try to twist a bad thing into a good thing. Be real and own your flaws.\n\nNever claimed it's a good thing, I would encourage my kids to not smoke any substance. \nI refuse to pretend like I'm not a capable reasonable adult who can chose what compromises I make in my life. Im a former heroin addict, and I learned long ago you pick your battles, if you insist on being perfect to accept yourself youll just hate yourself till the day you die. My choice to use Nicotine is based on what I value versus what I dont value and living till 80 or even 70 is not something I value. You do you.", ">\n\nGreat, smoke then. Just acknowledge you're valuing drug use over what could be 10 extra years of life with your loved ones. If your kids call you selfish for that decision, own it.", ">\n\nMy father was a pathologist, one of those old-fashioned scientists who never stopped learning. Here's what he told me happens more often than not: people die for whatever reason (\"natural\" death is 99% cancer, stroke or a heart failure) but if they were smokers, lots of pathologists will simply put \"consequences of smoking\" as a cause of death and call it a day. So statistics on smoking is fucked (just like any other statistics because it is unbelievably easy to manipulate data) and we actually DON'T know how many people prematurely died of smoking. The only way to be sure would be to bring them back to life and let them live their life exactly the same sans smoking. There's literally no other way to prove this shit. Same goes for all the people who \"died of covid\" - yes, millions died with covid, but how many of them died of covid? That number is waaay smaller than it is popular or even allowed to say nowadays.", ">\n\nOkay, you realize this is bargaining right? You stated you “know the risks” but now posit that “actually nobody knows the real risks.” Two thoughts that aren’t compatible.\nAny person using any substance they “know is bad but I accept the risks” does this to an extent, I do with weed and alcohol, but you realize you’re doing it correct?", ">\n\nI think you are trying to reply to multiple people here. I never said we knew the risk, that was a poster above me. Oh and I'm not defending smoking here at all, as I'm not a smoker, I'm just trying to be objective. Also I've literally never met a smoker who doesn't know smoking is harmful, I mean, you really have to be scarily dumb to claim inhaling smoke is not bad for you. But is it really the worst thing you can do for your health like some people claim? Nah. Nowhere near it. I'd argue that McDonalds kills way more people than smoking does.", ">\n\nMcDonalds, or specially foods that are part of forming unhealthy eating patterns (obesity, heart disease, etc) do kill more people that’s 100% true… now at least.\nIt’s not the worst thing for your health… but comparing the upsides to downsides it’s up there. Alcohol is close.\nI say it’s bargaining because you’re downplaying it. You’re not the same person but still.", ">\n\nAll I am downplaying is overblown statistics. Because it is overblown and it should be downplayed. I am not denying risks though.", ">\n\nSo what statistics should I be trusting? Why do you personably even think smoking is bad all?\nShould I think alcohol isn’t all that dangerous either? \nIs fast food bad because I can see people get fat (in spite of there being little evidence that being fat causes illness, rather than the things that cause Illness also causing people to be fat)?\nWe have the evidence we have. I agree it’s not perfect, but I struggle to think “it’s all bullshit.”", ">\n\nDoes your view only include tobacco smoking? The exact same arguments would apply to any behaviors that are not entirely healthy. Drinking, overeating, over working, etc. Does a parent that drinks also not respect their children? How about a parent that is into sports that could lead to them being harmed and unable or less able to care for their children?", ">\n\nI think the main difference is in the amount of bodily harm and also the consistency. \nMost people arent drinking large amounts of alcohol daily, and throughout the entire day. And if they are, they are alcoholics and the same thing applies to them- HOWEVER alcohol is far more entrapping due to it having a gaba withdrawal which can kill you. \nCigarettes are far worse on the body, and smokers go through up to dozens a day.", ">\n\nDo you know what is worse for your health than smoking? Being overweight/obese, sedentery and living on junk food and takeouts. That describes about 70% of Americans, so there's a lot of terrible and selfish parents out there. Right?", ">\n\nI’m sure Macaroniking69 is in perfect health and without any character flaws.", ">\n\nLol they’re apparently an anti vaxxer so that explains a lot.", ">\n\nThis is why im glad I never had children.", ">\n\nIngest an addictive substance everyday for multiple years and then try to quit. See how easy it is.", ">\n\nI was a smoker who has kids and I'll keep this simple. \n\nI never smoked around my kids. I always did outside. I understood the risks of secondhand smoke. \nI love my kids. I love them enough to not smoke around them. \nI learned that some particles stay on your clothes. I made certain adjustments such as wearing a jacket and washing my hands after smoking. \n\nI quit smoking. I'm glad I did. It was very difficult. \nThere is a big misunderstanding by non-smokers, but I always understand their point of view. I smell bad. My breath smells bad. My clothes smell bad. It's bad for me and others. \nHowever, the non-smokers fail to realize that it's and addictive drug. For some, it's very addictive. Quitting sucked for a good 3 months for me before I got some even keel. There is a failure to understand this is an addiction because it's a legal and available addictive product. \nCigarettes are so addictive that even after trying one, the person who smoked it will crave another cigarette. \nThey aren't selfish. They are battling an addiction.", ">\n\nHow about fat people with kids? How about double-parkers with kids? What if you might pass a hereditary disorder to a kid? Maybe they don't all smoke with their kids in the car, you're being an asshole", ">\n\nBeing obese with kids is pretty much the same. If you cant fix your diet and exercise to improve your healthy for your family you’re selfish.", ">\n\nWe know. Addiction isnt easy for anybody. But that would require you to understand something, and have empathy. \nThe world is not a pretty place, and your judgements don't help much.", ">\n\nI’m a parent. I have two kids. I never smoked during pregnancy or breastfeeding. My kids are 14 & 11, and I have been trying to quit for 3 years. I have just got a vape, and I’m gonna try that rout. \nI absolutely care about my kids. I have an addiction that doesn’t put my life at risk each time I succumb, but in the long run, yeah, I’ll pay.", ">\n\nJesus Christ you act like they're being exposed to Christianity or something truly harmful, it's just a cigarette. If they want to smoke let them smoke. When did America become about telling other people how to live?", ">\n\nI agree with Christianity, an will further that to all religion. \nIts not about being exposed to anything. Its about knowingly/choosing to cause extreme damage to your body which liekly will lead to cancer and death… leaving your family stranded and sad", ">\n\nAs humans, we’re each ultimately left stranded and sad … especially if we live long enough. Ironic, huh?", ">\n\n\nCigarettes are disgusting and for the selfish who lack self control and clearly have trouble evaluating risk/reward.\nCigarette smokers clearly do not have the mental capacity to think in the medium term or even long term.\n\nYou could have made a cohesive argument on the risks about second-hand smoking, but instead you focused on something smokers absolutely don't care about: their own longevity.\nEveryone can read. Everyone know \"smoking kills\". I grew up being told that every cigarette is half a day less of retirement. But no smoker cares. I willingly trade that time for the \"minimal high and euphoria\" and that's my own damn problem.", ">\n\nAnd your families.", ">\n\nIf I ever end having children, which I don't want, I'm not gonna wait until I get my lung cancer diagnosed to start thinking about inheritance paperwork. Again, they'll most likely be 30-40 years old by the time my smoking starts affecting my own health, so they'll be fine I'm sure. The rest of my familly I don't own shit to.", ">\n\nAh yes money will surely fill the hole in their heart of a lost parent", ">\n\nParents have to die one day or another. (Hence why I don't want children anyway.)\nWould you say a father who works in a nuclear energy plant (for an example of a median life expectancy drastiscally reduced) is irresponsable?", ">\n\nTo clarify, you’re comparing someones way of making money to provide with voluntarily smoking cigarettes", ">\n\nYou've made the point that \"parents take choices that affect their lifespans and that affects their children\". I'm asking you, where do you draw the line ? A smoker who goes outside to relax is \"bad\"? A parent who practises an extreme sport is \"bad\"? Someone who works a job with a risk-bonus salary is \"bad\"?\nOf course someone that'd literally neglect their children so they can focus on their high wouldn't be responsable nor respectable. But you generally find a balance.", ">\n\nI mean doing something to earn money to support their family is different (although still not great) than vountarily smoking cigarettes despite all of the crystal clear risks for zero benefit", ">\n\n This is a huge point of contention for me. I was a smoker starting from 14 years old. When I got pregnant with my son, I used Zyban to quit smoking for him. Now he is profoundly autistic. I love my children, but I was weak because smoking was a part of who I was. I was in the military at the time, and 60% or more work and professional connecting is done on the smoking deck of the ship.\n\n I started smoking again within a month of my sons birth, but I never once smoked around him. We always smoked outside the house and never in the car with him. When he was little I even used a smoking jacket that was kept on the back porch.\n\n4 years later, I was pregnant with my second child. Fearing the side effects of trying to quit smoking the first time, I chose to continue smoking as opposed to putting the stress on my body trying to quit cold turkey, which if you didn't know, is also incredibly difficult on the baby.\n\nI was finally able to quit three years ago, but I still want one every time I smell it. Do I have no respect for my children? Or did I do everything I possibly could to keep the habit from them? You really do come across as really entitled, like saying why don't homeless parents just get a house.", ">\n\nAre you or have you been a smoker? If not, don't speak to things you know nothing about. If quitting were that simple, many would have done it. Clearly, you have not dealt with addiction personally or you would not be so callous. I urge you to do some research into addiction as it might give you a bit of understanding and empathy.", ">\n\nYou're forgetting the most important part. That their kids can actually get sick too from secondhand smoke. However, smoking is addictive, so you're saying they have a little bit more control than they have. I would say, if they intentionally had a kid while being smokers, then that is their fault. But then if the kid was accidental, I guess it depends whether the kid would have been better off if they were adopted or not.", ">\n\nNot only the second hand smoke, but kids who grow up around parents who smoke are much more likely to smoke themselves, and I. Fact to start smoking much earlier than their peers.", ">\n\nIt depends on the kid. Certainly kids model their behavior off of close adults, and they have access to addictive nicotine. On the other hand, I know people who had parents or grandparents who spoke, and watching them die slowly in the hospital made them never want to smoke ever.", ">\n\nMy parents both smoked in the car despite our pleas to wait until we got where we were going.\nFreezing winter and they would scream if we opened a window. \nNo respect indeed.\nOne died at 55, one at 71.", ">\n\nYeah it’s sad to watch but we are just a bunch of monkeys flying through space on a giant rock… and it shows.", ">\n\nI can’t agree to all but considering I have three kids, I would like to point out that I think some of us at least harbor some amount of guilt. I am not a habitual smoker. More, social, or under huge duress. But every time I do light one, I struggle with huge guilt over second hand smoke, smell, health risks, cost financially although that’s the least of the issue considering it’s maybe one cigarette a month if that. I go long stretches of months without. I think, like everything else we have to sort of pick and choose our poison.. some peoples poison looks like an endless array of sodas, chips, hours at the gyms day… etc", ">\n\nI started smoking to ensure my boss at a shitty retail job couldn't continue to deny me breaks, and I quit when things got serious with my then-girlfriend and before we had kids. I wouldn't smoke in front of a child even then, and were I to smoke now in a social setting I wouldn't do so with kids around. Even now I'll hang out with others smoking, and depending on what they're smoking I do enjoy the smell.\nI say this to say I'm not the usual anti-smoking person. And while I personally quit for reasons that made sense and were important to me, not everybody is able to do so. Claiming that somebody can quit based on availability of resources misunderstands addiction, and claiming that an addict has no respect for others because of their addiction misunderstands both addiction and people in general.\nThe companies pushing cigarettes though? They absolutely have no respect for people regardless of age. They're as happy to risk adults as they are kids because it's profitable for them. Judge them, and not the person unable to quit because of them.", ">\n\nIn life, you are subjected to conditions. Nobody promised you a rose garden.", ">\n\n🤓", ">\n\nHere come the “But if you drink alcohol or soda, you’re also killing yourself” people", ">\n\nYou obviously haven't dealt with addiction in your life. That's great for you and you should be thankful for that, but you aren't perfect either and have no right to tell parents how they should or shouldn't treat their bodies. There are so many things a parent can do wrong, but I think most people would pick a cigarette smoking, loving parent, over a healthy parent that doesn't show you the love you need.", ">\n\nI was addicted to oxycodone for a few years. Snorting 4-5 blues a day. I was single though and had no dependents, have been clean for many years. That being said, what I did was selfish and I was not thinking about the people who loved me. Luckily none relied on me and oxycodone is largely benign on the body.", ">\n\nIf you're talking about current smokers with kids I would say yes. However, my Mom took up smoking back before the surgeon general was a thing. Also at the time science claimed cigarettes weren't harmful. Couple that with how hard it is to quit, and it's hard to fault her for becoming addicted. Smoking was socially acceptable well into the later 20th century which reinforced her addiction. Fortunately she is still around and regrets taking it up but hindsight is always 20/20.", ">\n\nStrongly disagree. I started smoking at 13. I know someone that started smoking at 8. You have quite clearly never had to battle with addiction, it doesnt come down to intelligence or self control. Patches, groups and doctors don't magically cure addiction. Would you say the same to an anorexic addicted to starving? Someone addicted to cutting? Millions of smokers arent dying from laziness don't think you understand what you havent experienced I don't have kids but never ever smoke around children \nAlso how many parents are obese but no one talks about that", ">\n\nI mean I’ve been addicted to oxycodone so I might have some experience in this area. I also smoked cigarettes / used vapes for a year. Quitting nicotine was easier than quitting coffee and the health effects made it even easier and a no brainer.", ">\n\nHonestly I don’t smoke and I despise it\nHowever there have been multiple studies that show the negative health effects of secondhand smoke are minimal to non existent \nDisgusting maybe but health and such no", ">\n\nI got you but wha I was saying wasnt about second hand smoke. It was about someone damaging their body with cigarettes which usually leads to cancer or death while they have family relying on them. They are selfish." ]