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[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done", ">\n\nBig brother USA putting a stop to blackmailing" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done", ">\n\nBig brother USA putting a stop to blackmailing", ">\n\n\"You're either going to buy American or Russian. Have you seen how thats been working out for Russia? Yeah.\"\nThank you Putin for being the best advertisement for western arms." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done", ">\n\nBig brother USA putting a stop to blackmailing", ">\n\n\"You're either going to buy American or Russian. Have you seen how thats been working out for Russia? Yeah.\"\nThank you Putin for being the best advertisement for western arms.", ">\n\nLet Turkey buy Russian military hardware instead, we all know how good that stuff is, judging by the performance over the past year." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done", ">\n\nBig brother USA putting a stop to blackmailing", ">\n\n\"You're either going to buy American or Russian. Have you seen how thats been working out for Russia? Yeah.\"\nThank you Putin for being the best advertisement for western arms.", ">\n\nLet Turkey buy Russian military hardware instead, we all know how good that stuff is, judging by the performance over the past year.", ">\n\nThey want to get European made planes, the Eurofighter Typhoon. \nMaybe even Turks know that Russian made planes are not capable enough." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done", ">\n\nBig brother USA putting a stop to blackmailing", ">\n\n\"You're either going to buy American or Russian. Have you seen how thats been working out for Russia? Yeah.\"\nThank you Putin for being the best advertisement for western arms.", ">\n\nLet Turkey buy Russian military hardware instead, we all know how good that stuff is, judging by the performance over the past year.", ">\n\nThey want to get European made planes, the Eurofighter Typhoon. \nMaybe even Turks know that Russian made planes are not capable enough.", ">\n\nTurkey is not an ally. If it wasn't for their geolocation, the US would have no use for them at all." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done", ">\n\nBig brother USA putting a stop to blackmailing", ">\n\n\"You're either going to buy American or Russian. Have you seen how thats been working out for Russia? Yeah.\"\nThank you Putin for being the best advertisement for western arms.", ">\n\nLet Turkey buy Russian military hardware instead, we all know how good that stuff is, judging by the performance over the past year.", ">\n\nThey want to get European made planes, the Eurofighter Typhoon. \nMaybe even Turks know that Russian made planes are not capable enough.", ">\n\nTurkey is not an ally. If it wasn't for their geolocation, the US would have no use for them at all.", ">\n\nCan Turkey just be booted out already?" ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done", ">\n\nBig brother USA putting a stop to blackmailing", ">\n\n\"You're either going to buy American or Russian. Have you seen how thats been working out for Russia? Yeah.\"\nThank you Putin for being the best advertisement for western arms.", ">\n\nLet Turkey buy Russian military hardware instead, we all know how good that stuff is, judging by the performance over the past year.", ">\n\nThey want to get European made planes, the Eurofighter Typhoon. \nMaybe even Turks know that Russian made planes are not capable enough.", ">\n\nTurkey is not an ally. If it wasn't for their geolocation, the US would have no use for them at all.", ">\n\nCan Turkey just be booted out already?", ">\n\nTurkey is the local bully. They fuck around with their neighbours and the less modern weapons they have, the better." ]

[ "This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nWashington is using the potential sale of F-16 fighter jets as bait to force Ankara to ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership applications, Bloomberg writes.\nFollowing last week's protest, Turkey summoned the Swedish ambassador, opened an investigation and canceled a planned visit to Ankara by the speaker of the Swedish parliament.\nThe U.S. has warned Turkey that Congress may not approve the plane sale if Ankara does not ratify Sweden's and Finland's NATO bids, a senior Turkish official said on condition of anonymity.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sweden^#1 NATO^#2 Turkey^#3 Erdogan^#4 Finland^#5", ">\n\nTurkey should not be allowed to compromise NATO security. The US should do more than just hold up weapons sales.", ">\n\nThe US will likely do more, but only if it's necessary.", ">\n\nThe reality is Sweden and Finland already have security assurances from the US and other NATO countries, so in more ways than not they're already in NATO. The US and the rest of NATO have all the time in the world to pressure Turkey to give its vote, there's no real urgency to do it fast.\nEdit: Yes, I get it, Ukraine had security assurances too, Trump didn't uphold previous agreements, blah blah. They're in the European Union which has its own mutual defense agreement and even though it's not in the EU, Norway would absolutely not tolerate Russia invading Sweden or Finland.", ">\n\nTreaties ratified in the USA are binding on us as Federal law. That I includes NATO. Russia’s nightmare is knowing we WILL react if they hit these places. \nGet them in NATO. It cripples Russia.", ">\n\n\nIt cripples Russia\n\nMajor thing to point out - it will only cripple them if they decide to attack.\nSo as long as they don't act like bitchass punks, they're fine.", ">\n\nBasically, it \"cripples\" their ability to be a thuggish hegemon in the region. But if they just trade normally and do diplomacy like everyone else, theyd probably be flourishing, if not for all the attendant corruption.", ">\n\nAKA: Don't act like a cunt, and you won't get fucked.", ">\n\nDon't start nothin', won't BE nothin'.", ">\n\nTalk shit, get hit", ">\n\nWhat are the odds that Turkey's reluctance is just political posturing from Erdogan ahead of the 2023 general election coming up in June? Not at all familiar with Turkey's political landscape, but it does seem like a plausible explanation for Turkey's stance so far.", ">\n\nNot quite, Sweden's entry into NATO is protested by most of the political spectrum within Turkey. ( I have seen almost zero opposition to Finland ) \nErdoğan is being criticized for failing to extort enough suspects from Sweden.\nAs for opposition parties, they are disdained by worsening European relations. I remember the head of the main opposition party saying \"This issue should have been resolved behind closed doors.\"", ">\n\nWhy is Sweden, who's bordered by NATO countries already, protested and not Finland, who borders Russia?", ">\n\nTheir issues are not on behalf of Russia, but the support of kurds in the region", ">\n\nIf there is one single thing the middle east can agree on it's their disdain for the kurds and their desire for independence.", ">\n\nI'm not middle eastern, but I'm guessing because there's many of them spanning three or four countries. If they had their country, it would take HUGE chunks from places like Turkey and Iran, which I'm sure they're not keen on.", ">\n\nThis is indeed the case. Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all have Kurdish populations. It's such a problem RN because due to instability in Syria among other things, they've gained a lot of autonomy/ground there. Turkey and Iraq are particularly worried as they border the kurdish populations that are in Syria and are afraid it's going to spill over/support their own separatist movements. \nWouldn't be surprised if Erdogan went full steam ahead with his safe zone plan in northern Syria. War gets the home support for his reelection going.", ">\n\nNo no, lets see what will Erdogan do if the answer to his antics is just.. silence. Not like we (finland and sweden) are in a hurry. I mean we thought we might be, but it seems that Russia is going to dissolve all on its own, so.. have at it, Turkey", ">\n\nYeah this whole situation got a lot less tense when it became obvious that Russia was going to struggle in Ukraine. I can’t imagine you guys are particularly worried at this stage.", ">\n\nRussia attacking Finland would be flat out insanity. The Finns have been prepping for almost 80 years. It was clear it would be a bloodbath even before the state of Russia's military was exposed.", ">\n\nUnfortunately Finnish defence strategy is not based on deflecting the Russian invasion. It is based on making it very costly and stupid move.\nPutin has shown that he does not care about casualties nor do many russians. Finland can't really win a war where Russia would be willing to have over 300k casualties.\nIn my opinion, even with the state of Russian military exposed, Russia could realistically wage a war that Finland would not be able to deflect.", ">\n\nFinland on its own, probably not. Finland supplied by NATO countries, as seen in Ukraine, can probably last a long time. Finnish terrain is much harder to fight in than Ukraine's, it would be way worse for Russia than they are currently experiencing.", ">\n\nFinland could be embargoed though.\nIn case of war, I still think it would be likely that Sweden would join the war out of the danger of having Russia as its neighbour. Their best deterrent against Russia is Finland in between.\nFinnish landscape is heavy forests, lakes and swamps so I agree on that. It would be harder than Ukraine and Finland would be heavily defended and supplied by Nato members (also EU has defence pact) but in the end, Russia has shown that it doesn't really care about pointless wars.", ">\n\nFinlands strategy is to just fuck their shit up and complete victory is more of an afterthought.\nWe have such thick forests the only way to get through is with small roads and dealing with them we have motti tactics. Bridges and tunnels are made so they can be easily destroyed and bunkers for nearly all, because we know Russia doesn't play fair.\nCompared to Ukraine the geography is switched from large fields of farm land (easy for large invasion in good weather.) To finlands small roads in bum fuck nowhere with lakes and swamps\nOh and the government mandates that vital medicine and other products must have extra for minimum of 3 months if supplies are cut.", ">\n\nAs we should. We’ve been far too patient with them as it is.", ">\n\nRemember when Erdogan came to D.C. and had his thugs beat the shit out of a crowd of protesters and nobody did shit about it?\nFuck Turkey", ">\n\nWell specifically fuck Erdogan.", ">\n\nHe was elected into office by the people, he didn't appear out of nowhere.", ">\n\nI can stand by his initial election. His systematic elimination of checks and balances since then is unforgivable imo, but that’s overwhelmingly on him.", ">\n\nActually you shouldnt, the guy was banned from politics for live because he said \"mosques are our source of obedient warriors\" or something alike.", ">\n\nWhat you’re saying fits with my narrative just fine. My (less than expert/academic) understanding is that there was real popular backlash against the secularization of Turkish society. The people genuinely loved politicians who showed backbone standing up for their religious beliefs. That is an entirely legitimate reason to vote for a candidate in a democracy.", ">\n\n\"we want democracy and freedom to vote in who we want!\"\n\"You guys voted in who??!!\"", ">\n\nBut that's not exactly true of Turkey. Modern Turkey was set up as a secular and modern state first and a democratic state second, or more accurately, \"eventually\".\nAttaturk was both liberal and a secularist but he lead a dictatorship and was rather harsh on religious sentiment. His goal was to eventually transition to a democracy but with checks and the main check was on religion. \nThat model was imported from France (laicite) and even kept the same name (laiklik/laicism) because France had the same issues with the catholic church having enormous influence and making democratic elections meaningless when it exerted it uncontrolled. \nMy point is that the mission statement of Turkey in its founding wasn't that it would be a great democracy where all voices are heard but that it would be a modern, secular and national state where voices opposed to that would fade or be faded away.", ">\n\nThat is super interesting, thanks for sharing. Do that have separation of church and state in their constitution?\nPS sketchy username given the context lol", ">\n\nErdogan is a massive asshat that needs some perspective. Hopefully this will suffice.", ">\n\nIt won’t.", ">\n\nWhy wouldn't it? People like him understands the use of power.", ">\n\nI’ve read that Erdogan’s responded to inflation with a rigid adherence to Islamic economics. He probably has advisors who understand cause and effect, but he’s responding ideologically.", ">\n\nWhen an extortionist gets extorted. Beautiful! [insert michael fassbender steve job \"perfection\"meme]", ">\n\nIt is a shame that the U.S. has to use anything at all.\nShame on Erdogan. Shame on Orban.", ">\n\nGood thing about a significantly weakened Russia that's mostly reduced to fighting with literal antiques, or even a disintegrated Russia that, say, loses the Caucus, is that these eastern European strongmen make much less sense as buffers. They become expendible to the EU and NATO, or, their states being depressurized gives democracy a chance to flourish. I suspect we'll see this with Belarus first post-war.", ">\n\nThat's an interesting, hopeful take on the situation!\nRegarding Belarus, how do you mean? Do you think Lukashenko will try to be more democratic? Will the people rise up against him because there's no more support from Russia left? Something else?", ">\n\nLukashenko may not have Russia to come step in for the next uprising against him.", ">\n\nI don't get this title. The US isn't \"forcing\" Turkey. Continuing the sale of F-16 fighter jets was one of Erdogan's goals with blocking the ratifications.\nAnother goal is to get free rein in Northern Syria to kill the YPG, which the US will most likely grant. A final goal would be the resumed participation of Turkey in the F-35 program - that one would be a huge win for Turkey if granted. Given that Finland and Sweden are unlikely to give in to Turkish demands, I wonder if Turkey will push harder for the F35 program especially given the recent news that Greece is getting them.", ">\n\nJust isn’t possible while S-400’s are present in Turkey. The U.S. literally doesn’t want the jet scanned by that RADAR.", ">\n\nTurkey gives s400s to Ukraine. Us gives f35 and patriots to turkey, in exchange for ratifying Sweden and Finland into NATO. Bingo bango.", ">\n\nThat won't happen either, because Turkey wants technology transfer also for the AA system (patriot or otherwise), which USA is unwilling to share. Only Russia was willing to share the technology for S-400.", ">\n\nTurkey didn't get full technology transfer as they wanted from Russia.", ">\n\nWhich makes their decision even more baffling than before. They knew that purchasing a Russian AA system would jeopardize their position in the F-35 program, so getting less than what they wanted and losing their place in that program just doesn't make sense long term.\nUnless they got something else also (like the promise for nuclear weapons knowledge transfer).", ">\n\nAllegedly Russia cut Turkey a real good deal for the S-400s to wheedle their way in.", ">\n\nA really good deal would have to compensate for the jobs lost in Turkish defence industry (Turkey was manufacturing the wings for F-35s), and give something extra too.\nI'm getting more and more convinced they got a deal for nuclear weapons technology transfer, on top of the second nuclear station that Rosatom will build in Turkey.", ">\n\nThere we go. In theory the Western nations should be able to apply enough diplomatic pressure to get it done. If someone like Erdogan decides to go all in and ignore it, though, NATO has a big problem.", ">\n\nI am of the perception that if Erdogan throws his toys out the pram and blocking Sweden and Finland, then NATO will simply do like the EU does with Hungary and basically work around them.\nSure, neither will be real members, but they will just be included and covered so much that there really wont be much difference.... save perhaps that no soldiers from Finland and Sweden will be visiting Turkey and vice versa... and Erdogan may have to wait even longer for those new jets.", ">\n\n\nsaid \"why are we supporting Ukraine so much when they are not in Nato?\".\n\nKind of scary that people have forgotten WW2 already. You can't appease a dictator - appeasement means you have a bigger fight later.", ">\n\nHahaha, what a way to name a situation in which Erdogan gets the best deal with US from ratifying Sweden and Finland NATO entries.\nThis reminds me of a Soviet joke:\n\"A Foot Race In Moscow Between World Leaders” read the headline.“Today in Timiryazevsky Park world leaders participated in a 100 meter foot race. Our Soviet Premier, Nikita Khrushchev, finished a very respectable second place. The poor American President, John F. Kennedy finished a miserable next-to-last.\"", ">\n\nSome comment that Turkey could leave NATO. Turkey can’t leave NATO because If they do, they can’t bully Greece any more.", ">\n\nWorse than that - if Turkey leaves NATO, NATO loses control of the Bosporus, the only way in or out of the Black Sea for ships larger than river barges from the Rhine-Main-Danube. \nRussia hasn’t reinforced its Black Sea fleet as Turkey has cut off access to the Bosporus for them. Simply put, they’re too strategically important for NATO to risk losing.", ">\n\nYes, this is it - Turkey sits on strategically important land, and therefore they will be in NATO.\nAnd so they must be appeased, to a certain extent.", ">\n\nYeah. If NATO had to pick between Sweden/Finland and Turkey, they would pick Turkey 100%. Not only is Turkey infinitely more important strategically than Finland or Sweden, but also they know that neither Finland nor Sweden are going to fall out of their sphere of influence even if they aren't in NATO. Meanwhile if Turkey left NATO, they wpuld definitely just fall off their friend list entirely and in worst case scenario maybe even end up siding with Russia at some point in the future.", ">\n\nIt's about time someone twisted Erdogan's arm for abusing their position in the alliance.", ">\n\n\"Let us be part of F35 program again, or we won't approve.\" -Erogdan\n\"Uhh, how about no F16s?\" -US", ">\n\nThis is the only logical step. Turkey is too important to NATO strategically and Erdogan knows this. \nSweden and Finland said it best: \"We have bent over backwards meeting Turkey's demands and they just keep moving the goal posts.\"\nNow if Turkey wants to play jet ball, they need to check their bullshit.", ">\n\nThat's not really what happened. Turkey made demands from the start that were outrageous and that Sweden/Finland would never meet (rightly).", ">\n\nSort of, their demands haven't to my knowledge been given as a point by point list - it's always been couched in general 'concerns'.\nThe deal which Sweden and Finland struck have been adhered to, the problem is that which was agreed to is being spun and interpreted by Turkey in a way that's never going to fly. \nFor example, Sweden agreed to process their extradition requests through the legal system and the next day Turkish spokespeople comes out with a list of people they claim will now be extradited, including political refugees like journalists who are protected from such extraditions by law.", ">\n\nAgain again I think thank fuk the Joe is in charge in the states instead or the orange muppet", ">\n\nyeah, can you imagine how bad the situation in europe and nato would be if that puppet was still in the big chair? \nHow the heck did people ever vote for cheeto mussolini?", ">\n\nI approve.", ">\n\nYou and everyone who is not an imbecile", ">\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out. Though I hope that the military industrial complex won't be too much inconvenienced at the responsibility of making more money.\nFinland and Turkey used to have a special sort of relationship, if only because it was one of our main places to go on holidays. I was in Turkey many years ago and there were even locals who had learned the Finnish language just to serve those tourists better. I doubt that the relations have ever been worse than they are now. Once we're in Nato we really need to take a much tougher stance on Turkey, at least until Erdogan is hanging from a tree or rotting away in a prison cell.", ">\n\n\nAs a Finn I feel embarrassed that USA already has to bail us out.\n\nNobody else in NATO sees this delay as any fault of Finland or Sweden, it's literally just Erdogan being a little bitch.\nYou guys are plenty welcome.", ">\n\nGood. Let the little troll choke on that.", ">\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.", ">\n\n\nGood, Erdogan should remember he isn't the biggest kid on the geopolitical block. He's overplaying this hand and needs to fold.\n\nHe isn't even the biggest kid in Europe.", ">\n\nIs it \"you wont get planes if you dont ratify\" or \"you will get planes if you ratify\"?\nIm pretty sure Turkey was banned from purchasing F16s due to other shit they pulled off. \"Baiting\" them with f16s seems like turkeys win", ">\n\nI thought they only got kicked out of the F35 club (for buying russian S300 missile systems)?", ">\n\nIt’s a little weird because turkey actually purchased S400 anti-air systems because they wanted to purchase United States patriot batteries, but they were asking for too much because they also wanted technology transfer to be partially constructed in turkey domestically. The US said that was absolutely not possible with good reason. Hell it’s very rare for even the absolute closest of allies to get any kind of technology transfer much less on the highly sophisticated patriots. \nSo Turkey started the process to purchase S400 systems. They were told repeatedly that that would get them removed from the F35 program. F35 is only for trusted allies and it’s simply not possible to include a country \nthat is doing close weapons purchases from Russia. Plus they did not wanna sell F 35 to a country that operated S 400 since they did not want, the radar signature of the F 35 to be scanned and tested on the S 400 before it’s absolutely necessary. Basically turkeys overplayed their hand and thought the US was bluffing.", ">\n\nAnkara..... Messi?", ">\n\nMore like Erdogan ensured the continual sale of fighter jets and set the precedent that he can leverage NATO votes for weapons.", ">\n\nSurprised Erdogan hasn't choked on his breakfast or something.", ">\n\nI hope Erdogan becomes Erdogone", ">\n\nAwesome. US using its muscle to force tyrants to stop being dumbasses is awesome.", ">\n\nErdogan's a jerk.", ">\n\nYa, the US forced Turkey for a deal they've begging for years for. Why don't I get forced like that as well?", ">\n\nIt's pretty hilarious that Erdogan is calling the Kurds terrorists. I'd rather the US have alliances with the Kurdish people over Turkey any day.", ">\n\nThis is the language Turkey understands.", ">\n\nThanks USA for helping us join NATO, you're like a big brother watching over us.", ">\n\nI don't understand why some people downplays turkeys hard and soft power. Turkeys soft power extends in the Balkans, caucasus, and the middle east. Areas that overlook important sea straits in the agean and black seas, hydrocarbon deposits, and the suez canal. It ensurs a stable ground to counter russias southern flank.\nTurkey is also the second largest army in Nato after the US, and their armed forces have become very competent in recent years. In case of an actual NATO article 5 activation if Russia invades eastern urope (Romania, Poland, etc) turkey will provide more manpower and armored divisions than the western European states. These are just numbers without discussing ideologies, form of governance, or religion, but NATO is a defense alliance that does not care about any other values (that's just how it's set up)", ">\n\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\nSince when does Turkey have the right to pressure protesters in Sweden? Am I reading this incorrectly? Banned groups where?", ">\n\nThey can ask for whatever they want. Doesn’t mean they’ll get it.", ">\n\nIf only it could be done retroactively. \n- Pilot tries to take off. \n- F16: your license is expired. Please insert Sweden and Finland NATO accession agreement to reactivate your plane.", ">\n\nGood move… 💪🏻🇺🇸", ">\n\nGood, they wanna play dirty, lets play dirty", ">\n\nThere we have it. It has been absolutely clear that Erdogan never intended to broker with the Swedes of Finns in good faith, with his upping the amount of perceived \"terrorists\" (journalists and refugees) \nAbout time US put some pressure on him.", ">\n\nIt's good to have a competent and functioning State Department!", ">\n\nGood! 👏🏾 Turkey needs to stop being so crazy, weird, and stubborn about people trying to protect themselves from Terrorist Russia! 🛡", ">\n\nLet’s face it, the U.S. is the bulk of NATO’s might. The U.S. could just sign mutual defensive treaties with Finland and Sweden, and other countries who have not followed suit most likely would at that point. Fuck Turkey, cut out the bullshit leverage they are using.", ">\n\nThe UK has already signed a mutual defensive treaty with them, so they already have a nuclear armed nation at their back, and we all know where the UK/US goes the other does too. So I don’t think Finland/Sweden are in a major rush to join NATO at this point anyway. So I agree, fuck Turkey.", ">\n\nThe click bait title does not do justice to a very well written op-ed article. I encourage reading it.\n\nNew tensions flared last week after protesters in Stockholm linked to Kurdish movements hung an effigy of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prompting Turkey to put more pressure on Sweden to crack down on banned groups.\n\n.\n\nTurkey says Sweden must do more to combat support for terrorists among the Kurdish population of about 100,000, as well as to extradite suspects. Sweden must show with actions, not just words or statements, that the PKK will not be present, it will not be allowed to collect money or recruit members,...\n\n.\n\nAlthough Sweden has deported at least one of the suspects wanted by Erdogan, its government cannot overturn a court decision in extradition cases where the judiciary has refused to send the accused to Ankara.\n\n.\n\nMaking demands in the first place makes the 68-year-old Erdogan seem strong to voters as he seeks to extend his rule for another five years.\n\n.\n\nNATO diplomats are cautiously optimistic that the issues will eventually be resolved, most likely after the Turkish elections. One noted that NATO's strengthening ultimately works to Turkey's advantage, especially in the Black Sea and the Middle East.\n\n.\n\nthe U.S., the most powerful country in the military alliance, has backed the Nordic countries with its authority. Washington is also using the potential sale of $20 billion worth of F-16 fighter jets as bait to get Ankara to comply.\n\n.\n\nbut the Biden administration has refrained from telling Ankara that receiving the planes will not happen until after the bids are ratified.\n\nSo yeah - a lot of politics and posturing going on. The US as always is trying to sell weapons on the side.", ">\n\nAmazing concentration of news regarding this topic on certain subs. Also there is criticism (mainly from bob menendez) about selling the F16s in congress, but his reasons have nothing to do with Nato and Sweden. So this article just makes shit up and uses “trust me bro” as it’s source.", ">\n\nAbout time.", ">\n\nShould’ve done this months ago.", ">\n\nI know the idiom about someone pissing out of your tent instead of into it, but Turkey doesn't seem to be a very good NATO partner", ">\n\nIf it wasn't for the Bosphorus Strait, I would say kick Türkiye out of NATO", ">\n\nSo basically, the USA is blackmailing Turkey in response to Turkey's blackmailing Sweden and Finland. It is just sad how things work in global politics.", ">\n\nAlways a bigger fish... Erdogan's up shit creek now.", ">\n\nYes, this is definitely a stick rather than carrot situation with Erdogan.", ">\n\nMany in Turkey would like to see the return of empire, just as Russia.", ">\n\nThe US should threaten to \"liberate\" Kurdistan. That'll get Turkey moving.", ">\n\nSounds good to me", ">\n\nTurkey's obstructionism as a NATO member is a clear example of why they are not ready to become and should not be accepted as full members of the EU. Their values, aims and refusal to compromise for the greater good are too different.", ">\n\nAnkara forces sale of F-16 fighter jets by threatening to hold up Swedish and Finnish bids…", ">\n\nThat doesn’t sound like force, that sounds like a negotiation.", ">\n\nAlternate title: Turkey uses ratification of Swedish and Finnish bids to force U.S. to sell F-16 fighter jets", ">\n\nThe “terrorist” that Turkey wants are probably former government employees or military members that left during the “coup” a couple years back. It’s not above board at all.", ">\n\nErdogan really helping stir up anti-Turkish sentiment in Europe. Not a smart move.", ">\n\nNot that he needed to in the first place", ">\n\nHope we send perfectly working jets. And no parts.", ">\n\nThese jets have only been dropped once.", ">\n\nFly it two hours.. done", ">\n\nBig brother USA putting a stop to blackmailing", ">\n\n\"You're either going to buy American or Russian. Have you seen how thats been working out for Russia? Yeah.\"\nThank you Putin for being the best advertisement for western arms.", ">\n\nLet Turkey buy Russian military hardware instead, we all know how good that stuff is, judging by the performance over the past year.", ">\n\nThey want to get European made planes, the Eurofighter Typhoon. \nMaybe even Turks know that Russian made planes are not capable enough.", ">\n\nTurkey is not an ally. If it wasn't for their geolocation, the US would have no use for them at all.", ">\n\nCan Turkey just be booted out already?", ">\n\nTurkey is the local bully. They fuck around with their neighbours and the less modern weapons they have, the better.", ">\n\nErdogan want to play stupid hardball games, well the US can do it too and better." ]

[]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves...." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?", ">\n\nWe hate spending money, that’s why we get all of ours from Lobbyists." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?", ">\n\nWe hate spending money, that’s why we get all of ours from Lobbyists.", ">\n\nRepublicans want this clash every year to remind everyone how much the government spends beyond it's means.\nDemocrats want this clash every year to show how republicans are willing to hold the economy hostage.\nNo politician is actually going to get rid of the meaningless debt ceiling or stop the overspending which it is supposed to discourage." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?", ">\n\nWe hate spending money, that’s why we get all of ours from Lobbyists.", ">\n\nRepublicans want this clash every year to remind everyone how much the government spends beyond it's means.\nDemocrats want this clash every year to show how republicans are willing to hold the economy hostage.\nNo politician is actually going to get rid of the meaningless debt ceiling or stop the overspending which it is supposed to discourage.", ">\n\nIdk about that. Get a few more normie establishment Dems elected (as opposed to the hardcore antiestablishment centrists like Manchin and Sinema) and a democratic house too and we may be able to see the debt ceiling removed or effectively removed. The whole \"both sides\" thing is rather tired at this point" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?", ">\n\nWe hate spending money, that’s why we get all of ours from Lobbyists.", ">\n\nRepublicans want this clash every year to remind everyone how much the government spends beyond it's means.\nDemocrats want this clash every year to show how republicans are willing to hold the economy hostage.\nNo politician is actually going to get rid of the meaningless debt ceiling or stop the overspending which it is supposed to discourage.", ">\n\nIdk about that. Get a few more normie establishment Dems elected (as opposed to the hardcore antiestablishment centrists like Manchin and Sinema) and a democratic house too and we may be able to see the debt ceiling removed or effectively removed. The whole \"both sides\" thing is rather tired at this point", ">\n\nRemoving the debt ceiling is a tough sell for the \"conservative\" democrats. Manchin and Sinema are definitely the hurdle there." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?", ">\n\nWe hate spending money, that’s why we get all of ours from Lobbyists.", ">\n\nRepublicans want this clash every year to remind everyone how much the government spends beyond it's means.\nDemocrats want this clash every year to show how republicans are willing to hold the economy hostage.\nNo politician is actually going to get rid of the meaningless debt ceiling or stop the overspending which it is supposed to discourage.", ">\n\nIdk about that. Get a few more normie establishment Dems elected (as opposed to the hardcore antiestablishment centrists like Manchin and Sinema) and a democratic house too and we may be able to see the debt ceiling removed or effectively removed. The whole \"both sides\" thing is rather tired at this point", ">\n\nRemoving the debt ceiling is a tough sell for the \"conservative\" democrats. Manchin and Sinema are definitely the hurdle there.", ">\n\nprint the trillion coins" ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?", ">\n\nWe hate spending money, that’s why we get all of ours from Lobbyists.", ">\n\nRepublicans want this clash every year to remind everyone how much the government spends beyond it's means.\nDemocrats want this clash every year to show how republicans are willing to hold the economy hostage.\nNo politician is actually going to get rid of the meaningless debt ceiling or stop the overspending which it is supposed to discourage.", ">\n\nIdk about that. Get a few more normie establishment Dems elected (as opposed to the hardcore antiestablishment centrists like Manchin and Sinema) and a democratic house too and we may be able to see the debt ceiling removed or effectively removed. The whole \"both sides\" thing is rather tired at this point", ">\n\nRemoving the debt ceiling is a tough sell for the \"conservative\" democrats. Manchin and Sinema are definitely the hurdle there.", ">\n\nprint the trillion coins", ">\n\nMcCarthy cannot negotiate at all, let alone in good faith, or he will be bounced, and being speaker is the only thing he cares about." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?", ">\n\nWe hate spending money, that’s why we get all of ours from Lobbyists.", ">\n\nRepublicans want this clash every year to remind everyone how much the government spends beyond it's means.\nDemocrats want this clash every year to show how republicans are willing to hold the economy hostage.\nNo politician is actually going to get rid of the meaningless debt ceiling or stop the overspending which it is supposed to discourage.", ">\n\nIdk about that. Get a few more normie establishment Dems elected (as opposed to the hardcore antiestablishment centrists like Manchin and Sinema) and a democratic house too and we may be able to see the debt ceiling removed or effectively removed. The whole \"both sides\" thing is rather tired at this point", ">\n\nRemoving the debt ceiling is a tough sell for the \"conservative\" democrats. Manchin and Sinema are definitely the hurdle there.", ">\n\nprint the trillion coins", ">\n\nMcCarthy cannot negotiate at all, let alone in good faith, or he will be bounced, and being speaker is the only thing he cares about.", ">\n\nThey will play stupid game and we all will win stupid prizes for putting these asshat's in office." ]

[ "Get ready for a long shut down with a side of wrecked economy.", ">\n\nI like to dunk wrecked economy right into a recession dip.", ">\n\nMcshutdownuggets?", ">\n\nDo not negotiate with terrorists.", ">\n\nI’m expecting a full blown WWE cage match in the house with the way things have been going recently.", ">\n\nCan I get in on that? Would love to body slam Gym Jordan.", ">\n\nYou're gonna have to wait in line. I'm sure several Ohio State wrestlers would have first priority.", ">\n\nAnd of course, when it happens it’s okay to look the other way…", ">\n\nEvery time Republicans gain a majority in the House, it's the same old song and dance with the debt ceiling.", ">\n\nIt's a free opportunity to complain about government spending, but not actually do anything to cut government spending which might hurt them at the polls.", ">\n\nIn fact, they REFUSE to curb .gov spending. They just want to complain. They’re less than worthless.", ">\n\nThey make it worse by trying to cut taxes every time. What their first bill was to enable tax cheats. I’m sure a third massive tax cut is already being written to introduce to the house (and the only permanent parts once again for the 1%). It’ll be one of the only breaks from the clown car of “investigations” that are about to appear.", ">\n\n1). Cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations (and only the wealthy and corporations - definitely do not cut taxes for anyone making under $1 million per year)\n2). Expand military spending - just vote “yes”…..doesn’t even matter what the number is as long as it’s “more”\n3). Blame the democrats for the deficit and overly tax burdened middle class", ">\n\n4) claim we need a tax cut to lower deficit", ">\n\n5). Elect people who can’t pass the GED so the math doesn’t matter…..because they can’t do it", ">\n\nIn a way, Republicans really did make their own bed with this. If Republicans didn't use deficit spending as a political tool to undermine Democratic initiatives then perhaps it would be taken more seriously by the left today. \nWhen Bush and Republicans got rid of Clinton's surplus plans? It was pretty clear to everyone what they actually were doing. They don't care about the debt or deficit, they just care about undermining liberal initiatives. Which they have gone to great lengths to do. \nConservatives deserve the eye rolling and backlash they get when they bring this up. They brought it on themselves....", ">\n\nWhy do Republicans hate America?", ">\n\nThey love America. They just hate Americans.", ">\n\nThey're going to do whatever they have to to kill social security and Medicare. In the past this has been performative, but this time the house is full of true believers.", ">\n\nThey didn't have a problem raising it when trump was president.", ">\n\nThis. The sheer hypocrisy of Republicans having no issue with the debt ceiling while Trump was in office, having fought Obama tooth and nail over it and now suddenly having a problem with it when Biden is in - it’s just unbelievably amazing but not surprising. I wish American voters would recognise this and show their distance for it at the polls.\nRepublicans are just unprincipled, one trick ponies. I can’t believe I respected them years ago thinking “you may not agree with them but have to respect that they principled”. What a load of shit.", ">\n\nThe GOP do not care what happens to the country. Right now democrats hold the WH and senate. So if the GOP screws over the country they will point at the democrats and blame them. This is why when gas prices were so high, you can almost see the hlee and joy from republicans while they blame Biden. They love when the country is worse off and willing to help it happen if it means they can say oh look, democrats are in charge so it is all their fault. \nThis is why I always hate seeing these charlatans spew garbage of loving this country and its freedoms. All the while deliberately sabotaging it and undermining this countries values.", ">\n\nWhen the Senate passes a bill, then it's just whoever can yell more convincingly about whose fault it is", ">\n\nAt what point, if ever, does a group of reasonable Republicans finally say \"enough\" and just side with Democrats on bullshit like this?", ">\n\n\"reasonable\" Republicans would have to exist for this to happen.", ">\n\nIn this case, \"reasonable\" just means \"they'd lose so much money during a debt limit induced recession/depression that they fear for their personal financial stability. They still might hold extremist views but they're also afraid that driving the economy over the cliff will result in them in the fiery wreck as well.\nIn addition, a \"reasonable\" Republican (as far as this is concerned) might be one that realizes that causing a debt limit induced recession will hurt them politically.\nIn other words, pure self interest might lead them to strike a deal with the Democrats. Their \"reasonableness\" will be relative to the Republicans itching to blow up the entire economy just to \"own them libs.\"", ">\n\nGOP Weaponizes Debt Ceiling vote to enable cuts to Medicare and Social Security.", ">\n\nHere comes the \"Don't make me hit you!\" phase of the abusive relationship.", ">\n\nLOL what fight? It's McCarthy's house It's his responsibility to raise it.", ">\n\nIf ever democrats get a filibuster super majority the debt ceiling needs to be abolished.", ">\n\nSo the Democrat's game here is to cross their arms, roll their eyes, and tell the GOP to do their job, right?", ">\n\nWe hate spending money, that’s why we get all of ours from Lobbyists.", ">\n\nRepublicans want this clash every year to remind everyone how much the government spends beyond it's means.\nDemocrats want this clash every year to show how republicans are willing to hold the economy hostage.\nNo politician is actually going to get rid of the meaningless debt ceiling or stop the overspending which it is supposed to discourage.", ">\n\nIdk about that. Get a few more normie establishment Dems elected (as opposed to the hardcore antiestablishment centrists like Manchin and Sinema) and a democratic house too and we may be able to see the debt ceiling removed or effectively removed. The whole \"both sides\" thing is rather tired at this point", ">\n\nRemoving the debt ceiling is a tough sell for the \"conservative\" democrats. Manchin and Sinema are definitely the hurdle there.", ">\n\nprint the trillion coins", ">\n\nMcCarthy cannot negotiate at all, let alone in good faith, or he will be bounced, and being speaker is the only thing he cares about.", ">\n\nThey will play stupid game and we all will win stupid prizes for putting these asshat's in office.", ">\n\nIt’s all talk, it fucks the economy and Wall Street, but there’s no real way to shut off all the payments. Obviously the negative repercussions, if any, will point directly at republicans." ]

[]